urbanMSP

No I'm not. I'm saying i think it could work (gasp!?). You're the one going overboard with your claims.

I also said it could work, with someone who had the money and the passion... AND once there were a few more residents in the area (which I said would hopefully be soon on the Northern end of Nic), I gave two examples that would make it a legitimate business plan. And you just think it should be something that the coffee angels drop on us, very thrd wave, much espresso.

For example:
TC Metro Workers: 1.8m (6,340 sqmi) (downtown about 170/190k workers if I remember correctly)
Just Toronto proper Workers: 1.3m (240 sqmi)
peers

Well... ok. You called wedgeguys posts "realistic" so I took that as a co-signing of his authoritative rants. And I get that we're not Toronto. Thanks.

I think what you guys all fail to realize is that coffee is gross and you just shouldn't drink it

Wedgeguy has a realistic idea of how small businesses start (and over 75% fail. starting a small business in a cbd has a very high start up cost that very few people are willing to shell out cash for (you need to preserve your cash for hard times) so even wealthy entrepreneurs borrow money to start up, and a bank would not see the logic in opening a low margin high cost business downtown at this point, looking at the population per block and the competition from the existing chains) I do think Banks seem to be blind to the draw independent and creative businesses have, (i.e. it would be the only thrd wave shop downtown and therefore not have competition of coffee chains in it's tier) and only work on numbers and not with whim and feeling, which is tough for a dreamer, who thinks it can work.

I also understand that we are not Kansas City.

I think what you guys all fail to realize is that coffee is gross and you just shouldn't drink it

+infinity. Energy drinks 4eva.

If it's not literally poison, I don't want it in my body.

If it's not literally poison, I don't want it in my body.

I've been enjoying your use of "literally" recently. Very artistically done.

I think what you guys all fail to realize is that coffee is gross and you just shouldn't drink it

+infinity. Energy drinks 4eva.

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS! ;D

If it's not literally poison, I don't want it in my body.

I've been enjoying your use of "literally" recently. Very artistically done.

I drink Zero Carb rockstar which has zero carbs, zero calories, just sodium and energy. It might actually be poison.
*sip*

Since my OP was clearly forgotten, I'll remind everyone you don't need to look to Chicago or Toronto or San Francisco: Downtown Columbus (OH) supports such a coffee shop even with a largely suburban population (2 million metro) and tiny (6,300) downtown population. Yet I'm supposed believe with 40,000 downtown residents and almost double the metro population that we can't even support a single one.

I'm sure rents in downtown Columbus are lower than they are in downtown Minneapolis.

I'm sure rents in downtown Columbus are lower than they are in downtown Minneapolis.

I'd be shocked if that was the reason for the phenomenon.

When I want to pay a lot for coffee and enjoy it, I honestly wouldn't think to go to the middle of the CBD to get it. In fact, I'd much rather go to the North Loop. Or Loring Park. Or the Mill District. Better yet, across the river in the St. Anthony Main area (where I live). And I can't imagine I'm alone. Combine that with likely cheaper rents in those neighborhoods and it's not that you couldn't survive as a "third wave" coffee shop in the CBD but that it probably makes more sense to do it on the periphery.

I also imagine there's a certain number of the "laptop and latte" crowd (or whatever the Latitude 45 guy called them in an article) who live near the CBD but don't work there. A coffee shop in the peripheral parts of downtown is probably going to be closer to where they live.

Since my OP was clearly forgotten, I'll remind everyone you don't need to look to Chicago or Toronto or San Francisco: Downtown Columbus (OH) supports such a coffee shop even with a largely suburban population (2 million metro) and tiny (6,300) downtown population. Yet I'm supposed believe with 40,000 downtown residents and almost double the metro population that we can't even support a single one.

I think smaller downtowns benefit from having a less corporate atmosphere. grand rapids Michigan and la crosse Wisconsin have great coffee shops in their downtowns but then again tiny downtowns aren't necessarily split into multiple neighborhoods like ours are. proportionately having the ones on the outskirts of our downtown business district are still downtown. because our 40k downtown includes NL and Loring Park and Elliot park and Mill City right?

our 40k downtown includes NL and Loring Park and Elliot park and Mill City right?

I suspect that number is for Central as a whole, which is not only "downtown" but the whole North Loop, Loring, Eliot, and even Stevens. That area was 30k in 2010, so you could imagine it pushing 40k with the new construction.

I'm sure rents in downtown Columbus are lower than they are in downtown Minneapolis.

And they're also a good deal higher in Chicago's Loop (population ~29,000), but that didn't stop a number of them from opening: I just visited a brand new one days ago. It seems rent has little to do with it then.

You either need a lot of customers to justify the high rent, or low rents so that you don't need a huge number of customers. You can't have tepid demand with high rent, which is what I suspect the current situation is here in Minneapolis.

How could it be tepid? Have you ever been to Minneapolis? I mean, do I have to rattle off a whole list of non-downtown third wave coffee shops proving otherwise?

Weren't we talking about downtown, the whole fact of the matter is that the suits wouldn't go there. And that's why it'd be tepid in DT. There you go, end of discussion. Lock the thread.