Riverview Corridor Streetcar

[Trademark]

I listened into the Riverview Corridor Station Area Planning meeting yesterday for Grand and Kellogg. One thing being discussed is closure of 7th St in front of the Xcel Energy Center during event times, but they need to look into traffic patterns more to see if it's feasible.

I would love for them to utilize Smith Ave as an alternative. Either turn Smith and 7th into one ways and give the streetcar its own lane. Or close Smith or 7th to car traffic and run the streetcar on one of those streets. Every street doesn't have to do everything. And grand to xcel will slow this line down so much.

[commissioner]

I raised this point before, but what about hospital access from Smith? I can see Allina (rightfully so) having an issue with Smith closing without access to the hospitals.

[Tcmetro]

There's supposed to be some big updates to the Riverview Corridor released in the coming months.

Personally, I don't think Smith is a good choice and I hope the planners have the same view. Smith is not an active street and basically has no chance of activation. It's largely used by ambulances, patient drop-offs, and those using the parking garages. 7th is considerably wider and the streetcar brings an opportunity to slow traffic in a key pedestrian area in the city.

[Tcmetro]

There's a Community Advisory Committee meeting on Thursday. Agenda here: https://www.ramseycounty.us/sites/defau ... dorCAC.pdf

[Bakken2016]

There's a Community Advisory Committee meeting on Thursday. Agenda here: https://www.ramseycounty.us/sites/defau ... dorCAC.pdf

https://www.ramseycounty.us/sites/defau ... 0FINAL.pdf

Presentation posted.

[DanPatchToget]

I have mixed feelings about dropping the option of interlining Riverview and the Green Line in downtown. It's hard for me to believe they couldn't do modifications to the infrastructure like a third track at Union Depot so they can interline smoothly. On the other hand it could be more possible to have a through-route light rail/streetcar to the east side of St. Paul, though they're pretty set on Riverview ending at Union Depot whether it's in front or in the back.

[Trademark]

I have mixed feelings about dropping the option of interlining Riverview and the Green Line in downtown. It's hard for me to believe they couldn't do modifications to the infrastructure like a third track at Union Depot so they can interline smoothly. On the other hand it could be more possible to have a through-route light rail/streetcar to the east side of St. Paul, though they're pretty set on Riverview ending at Union Depot whether it's in front or in the back.

I think running on 7th would be amazing for future flexibility, and the opportunity to run it up Arcade. A short corridor to Wheelock would be perfect for a streetcar to handle and at only 3 miles wouldn't be too expensive to build. The spur to Union Depot could always be abandoned in the future to allow for through running.

The downside though is that 7th street is not a great transfer point to the green line.

[Silophant]

What's the plan for storing/maintaining the vehicles for this line, if it doesn't interline with the Green Line in St Paul and they can't access the Lowertown OMF?

[DanPatchToget]

Isn't the Lowertown facility only for storage and light maintenance while the Franklin Avenue facility is for storage and all types of maintenance?

[BigIdeasGuy]

From the beginning wasn't one of the arguments for using rail vs bus completing the transit triangle between MSP, DT MPLS & DT STP? Not interlining with the Green Line feels like a really last minute idea at this point when for years the plan has always been assumed interlining is the right decisions and what was going to happen. The lack of a good or even below average transfer point is also worth pointing out. I feel like someone is just tossing the idea out there at this point trying to torpedo the project or at least significantly slow it down.

I get the case for using 7th, easy access to the east side would be a great added benefit but with the geometry any tracks would have it would be quite easy to tie in and add extension in the future from an engineering perspective. Besides does anything really think that "hey you didn't use 7th for Riverview" is going to be a serious roadblock to getting a future extension done?

[commissioner]

Isn't the Lowertown facility only for storage and light maintenance while the Franklin Avenue facility is for storage and all types of maintenance?

It is, I took a tour of the lowertown facility in 2019 and I recall the guide saying they can do most maintenance there but not all.

[StandishGuy]

Oh, I wish the planners would hire transit expert/ consultant Jarret Walker to improve this project. He has advised many bus system reconfigurations across the country with positive ridership results including in Houston. Walker uses a philosophy around "freedom" (of movement/ access/ mobility) to ground decisions around transit planning. Look for some of his videos on Youtube for reference.

Anyways, the Riverview project fails in severals ways to improve the freedom of riders because it will run in mixed traffic, will take longer than the current bus route and makes some poor connections.

[Hero]

I wonder if this wouldn't be better as a BRT or two. Maybe use the rail spur to bypass traffic on 7th? Seems a shame to abandon the new bus stop at terminal 1 or will route 54 still run if LRT is implemented?

On a somewhat related note, why is route 54 being considered for rail? If I remember correctly route 54 isn't even in the top ten.

[Mdcastle]

Isn't it basically that St. Paul wanted a real light rail connection instead of nothing but a bus from the Mall and Airport to their downtown too now that Minneapolis had one? So they applied political pressure to get it done? Back before COVID disrupted commute patterns and our light rail got an unsavory reputation creating what can almost be described as "reverse rail bias" now?

[DanPatchToget]

Not sure how long it will take, but I'm currently writing a Streets.MN article about BRT vs rail on the Riverview Corridor.

I'm 99% sure Riverview would replace Route 54, but isn't the transit center at Terminal 1 also used by other bus services like Jefferson Lines, SouthWest Prime, etc.?

Keep in mind before the Blue Line was completed in 2004 I doubt any of the bus routes along Hiawatha were in the top 10 for ridership. As for why rail is being considered to replace Route 54, in theory it would be a much more substantial upgrade than the previous plan for aBRT to replace Route 54. Bigger upgrade means more ridership, in theory anyways. There's also the existing light rail tracks and stations on the west and east ends of the Riverview Corridor. However, as we get into the details of "modern streetcar", it sounds like less of an upgrade, but there's still many questions that have yet to be answered such as center-running or side-running on West 7th, what trains Riverview would use, etc.

[Tcmetro]

The idea of a light rail triangle dates back decades and is pretty much why.

There was a BRT proposal (also called Riverview) around 2001-2002 which was combined with an extension along Phalen when that road was built. The planning stopped pretty quickly when budget issues mounted.

There's merit to BRT, but rail bias is a real effect. Long-term, rail might be better for dense development.

I don't think there's really any way to speed service significantly on the 54 line. The route already runs pretty quickly, there isn't much traffic, and it's already a limited stop. I think this project should be considered as one that improves the streetscape rather than mobility.

[Hero]

One thing the Blue line has that Riverview doesn't is connecting routes. VA, 46th, 38th, Lake street and Franklin Avenue are all basically transit hubs. Sandwiched between the river and I35E I'm not seeing any way to increase connecting routes so the stations will just draw from the surrounding population or the handful of routes that intersect with 7th street. Another thing Blue line has over Riverview is downtown populations. 8k vs 50k if I remember correctly.

[DanPatchToget]

I emailed Kevin Roggenbuck (transport planner with Ramsey County) shortly after the CAC meeting in August with some thoughts and questions:
"1) There was discussion about the width of the streetcars and the need for them to fit with the existing light rail platforms. Someone had mentioned the Siemens S70, which our light rail lines use, has a streetcar version that's slightly narrower than the light rail version. Wouldn't it make sense to order more of the light rail-version S70s (assuming they're still in production when Riverview is under construction) for Riverview and have them operate as single units on Riverview instead of 2- or 3-unit trains like our light rail lines? I assume with fleet commonality this would make maintenance on the vehicles easier and all of the vehicles could be used on any existing and future light rail/streetcar route in the region.

2) Regarding the downtown St. Paul alignment, it's disappointing to me that Riverview won't be able to use the existing light rail infrastructure and stations from Central Station to Union Depot. What additional challenges are there for interlining Riverview and Green Line in downtown St. Paul compared to the existing interlining of the Blue Line and Green Line in downtown Minneapolis? Has there been consideration of modifying infrastructure (tracks, stations, etc.) to make it feasible to interline Riverview and the Green Line?

My preference for the downtown St. Paul alignment is interlining with the Green Line and utilizing the existing stations at Central and Union Depot, and making the necessary infrastructure modifications for operations to perform smoothly. My second preference is the 5th/6th Street alignment, because connections with many bus routes and the eastbound Riverview to westbound Green Line transfer would be simple and easy. However, based on the map of possible station locations, transferring from eastbound Green Line to westbound Riverview would require walking 3 blocks. In addition to making access to downtown St. Paul easy, it needs to be easy for people whose final destination is outside of downtown.

3) Where will Riverview streetcars be stored and maintained?"

Here's Kevin's response:
"Regarding the choice of streetcar vehicle, Metro Transit has told us they prefer a vehicle that their operators are familiar with and is compatible with their mechanic’s training, tools and parts. At the same time, the Riverview Streetcar will need to have its own operation and maintenance facility and staff, so it may not be as important. Another consideration in choosing a streetcar vehicle is how well it fits into West 7th Street and downtown Saint Paul. A shorter vehicle could be more maneuverable and could have an advantage over a single-unit LRT vehicle. Siemens makes an S70 Short, which is a very similar to the LRT vehicle, only a little shorter. This might be our best vehicle choice, though that decision has not been made yet.

Regarding interlining with Green Line, yes it is disappointing that it is so difficult. There are two main differences between interlining in Saint Paul at Cedar Avenue vs. Blue and Green Lines interlining in Minneapolis. One is the location of the track switches. In Saint Paul, the switches would be in the street and subject to damage from vehicle traffic. In Minneapolis, the switches are in their own right-of-way and easier to maintain. The other difference is the grade on 5th and 6th Streets just west of Cedar. Metro Transit Operations was concerned about streetcars safely descending the hill and climbing the hill between Wabasha and Cedar in mixed traffic. We have not been able to come up with a better way to interline with Green Line and continue to Union Depot, so we have begun to look at other routes into downtown. The distance between Riverview stations on 5th and 6th and the Green Line station at Cedar is not ideal, but with good wayfinding, it will work.

Regarding storage of the streetcars, a separate operations and maintenance facility will be built for Riverview. The cars will be stored there as well and maintained and cleaned. A site has not been chosen yet, but I believe the selection process is down to about 10 sites."

[twincitizen]

Seems like if they had designed the Green Line to one day be extended eastward, rather than dead-ending it into a maintenance facility, that problem with the tracks and switches in front of Union Depot could've been avoided? Building a rail line into a downtown area with zero considerations for possibly one day extending it is almost too stupid to believe, yet here we are.

[Oreos&Milk]

Mr. Mayor! Tear down this maintenance facility! ..yea, looks like St. Paul got their version of a Lake St. Kmart..

Is there even an eastern fantasy green-line extension route? I would be all for redeveloping the maintenance facility into a nice development park full of housing, and whatever else the market is demanding right about now. What is the projected facility lifespan? Cause if it's 2060 or 2070 then we better start planning the route TODAY otherwise we would need to make timeline delays!

Also if they won't interconnect with the Green line then it should be branded under the "BRT" network. That way we can label it the BRT/SRT network. Since it's gonna be mixed with traffic anyways. And is there any logical eastern expansion path for an Eastern extension of the streetcar line? I thought the Robert street rapid transit line was an interest for a streetcar line, and maybe east 7th? A one-seat ride from MOA to Maplewood Mall would interesting if we could provide it on a streetcar.