urbanMSP

Adding an upper deck for LRT and regional trails (no more hauling bikes up/down stairs and across a narrow sidewalk) would be the best bet if we choose a Fort Road crossing.

I'd concur with that. My original design (which you can't easily see in my map above) envisioned an expansion of the Fort Road bridge to the northwest to accommodate the LRT, then the LRT went into a tunnel under Fort Snelling, being careful to avoid the fort buildings on the west side of Hwy 5, reemerging at the fort parking lot with a station, then bridging over 55 and wrapping around the back side of the GSA building to tie into the existing GSA station on the Hiawatha Line.

But I can see how it'd be easier to run it over the top of Fort Rd across the river and go through Fort Snelling at-grade. I believe it would be cheaper than a tunnel (which would have to be cut-and-cover) with less impact to Fort Snelling (because of the aforementioned tunneling requirement). It could still then cross 55 and wrap around the GSA building as I mentioned above. I don't see a need for a separate GSA station.

Since 7th St is not a principal arterial maybe some of the reconstruction for light rail could be funded with turnback money?

MnDot is redecking the Fort Road Bridge in 2014 & 2015. Again the planners dropped the ball. Why aren't we basing our construction properties on Matt's fantasies?

Probably because Matt's fantasies would require environmental study and a lot more money...

As would Adam's and Jonathan's transit fantasies.

So what is the general thought around the Ford spur and how it impacts line operation? Riverview has 2 branches, one that continues on to MSP/MOA? (which, can anyone quantify this ridership demand vs other destinations in western St Paul?) Cut the frequency for both branches in half, or meet in the middle and run them each every 15 minutes? Does rush hour/midday service at 20 minutes to Highland Park & MSP Airport really make sense? I would think that Cleveland & Ford, today and looking out 20 years, is a pretty important place to serve with high amenity transit beyond the stub of the A Line that will cross over to the 46th St Blue Line Station..

Alex, I like your idea of interlining with Midtown, and using the aBRT for airport access. But I bet the DT St. Paul interests would much rather have LRT airport access. I can't imagine two branches working out. It would be ideal for it to hit Ford Parkway and serve Highland Village, but I think this would come down to which crossing (Ft Road, or Ford Parkway) is easier, less intrusive, and cheaper.

Anyone know structural details regarding the Ford Parkway bridge? If the superstructure could support LRT, and how much modification it would require to do so? It was just rebuilt maybe 5 years ago.

I'm not a structural engineer, but I think as a baseline, we could safely assume that either bridge could, with significant and not inexpensive modifications, safely support LRT.

If we're fantasizing, a spur that hits the Ford Plant on its way to Uptown via 46th Street Station/Hiawatha/Midtown and a spur that goes to the airport and MOA via highway 5 seems to fill out our rail system nicely. We could even add lots of colors to our map:

Yellow: West Lake to Hiawatha at 10 minute frequencies.
Chartreuse: West Lake to DT St Paul at 20 minute frequencies. (7.5 minute frequencies between Uptown and 46th St Station)
Burnt Siena: MOA to DT St Paul at 20 minute frequencies. (10 minute frequencies along W 7th and into DT St Paul.

I like it. Someone should figure out how much new track would be required to make this happen.

I think it's fair to fantasize considering this thread is about an. actual. funded. study. and it is assume that this line would cross the river somewhere in the neighborhood of the Ford Pkwy or Fort Road. Dream away, Nate!

Since we're talking fantasies...

How much would it cost to do a sunken rail line for Finn st like the midtown greenway? The midtown line would cross the river and go to st Thomas down Finn to the Ford site with bridges for the east west streets as all the houses are on the east west streets.

Older bridges can be easier to modify for light rail. They didn't know how to build them "just good enough" for their intended use so they built them way overkill. With modern technology it's easier to figure out just how overbuilt they are. (Notably when they started just building them "just good enough" there were issues and a lot of them are being replaced in half the time of the older ones, or in one case fell down by itself.) I'd be happy with either one as long as the train wound up at the airport / MOA.

Shepard Road is the better choice for through traffic, and is the principal arterial east of I-35E, so if the 7th Street bridge is chosen I'd like to see the bridge funnel car traffic there rather than 7th, which could be down-scaled to allow for light rail and to be focused less for car commuting.

Shepard Road is the better choice for through traffic, and is the principal arterial east of I-35E, so if the 7th Street bridge is chosen I'd like to see the bridge funnel car traffic there rather than 7th, which could be down-scaled to allow for light rail and to be focused less for car commuting.

Careful there, you're starting to sound like one of us "car haters" with proposals like that

But srsly, moving MN5 to Shepard Road makes so much sense it's almost painful. It's practically a freeway already.

I see it more like Shepard Road east of I-35E only becomes a new state highway, and MN 5 just ends at the bridge. This would move further towards the eventual goal of having the trunk highway system correlate with principal arterials and turnback money becomes available to help rebuild 7th to accommodate trains. Sometimes I'll use it on my way to Ax-Man and Midway Books just to be different, but I could easily stay on the freeways if it's rebuilt for rail.

Or I suppose we could designate a new principal arterial on Shepard west of I-35E

The problem with routing 5 (or any state highway route) along Shepard is the lack of access to from 35E North. This is a big reason why West 7th between the bridge and 35E carries around 30K ADT...the full access at 35E. Adding such access at Shepard would be extremely difficult due to the river bluff and how 35E climbs the bluff there.

Regarding the thought of reconstructing West 7th to include LRT, I came up with this cross-section to conceptualize it. Existing West 7th has 54ft of street width (curb to curb), and 80ft of right-of-way width (sidewalk edge to sidewalk edge). While this is enough width to reconstruct the street to include LRT, there's not enough curb width, especially at transit stations and intersections requiring left turn lanes, to do so without impacting the boulevard. What I came up with in the Streetmix link would require some cutting into the boulevard, but would still leave a partial boulevard intact on a typical block.

Unfortunately, the ROW on West 7th is narrow enough to where not everyone will get what they want, nor would it be the most desirable in some areas. For cars, there is no way to run more than one lane in each direction with LRT in the street. This shouldn't be a problem between downtown and 35E, where volumes are at or below 17K...within the capacity range of a 2-lane street with adequate turn lanes. But it's a huge problem west of 35E, where traffic jumps to around 30K as I mentioned above.

For bikes, there's no way to run bike lanes without eliminating the boulevard at intersections and LRT stations. On-street parking would only be possible mid-block on one side of the street, and that's only if you skip bike lanes. Sidewalks wider than 7ft would only be possible by taking out the boulevard.

The advantage of running along West 7th is that the line would be closer to places people would actually go and come from along the corridor. The main disadvantage, described above, is that the limited street width limits what sort of amenities could be included.

Elway Street one block west of I-35E could be a connecting road from Shepard to allow northbound access to the highway from Montreal, or possibly some new more direct routing. It's four lanes, but currently only sees 4,600 AADT.

That's a possibility, though you'd still require some right-of-way to tie it into 35E north, plus the grade on Elway is 5% so it'd be a little tough for larger vehicles.

Here's what I came up with for a way to get the line across the river and through Fort Snelling (click on the map to access larger images):



I still think the CP Spur is a better routing than Fort Rd for the stretch west of 35E. It's also fairly easy to use the median on Edgcombe Rd and a deck over Fort Rd to get the line across the river. Extreme care would have to be taken on the Fort Snelling grounds, but I think this is doable.

Looks very familiar...... I like it.

Like the routing there on the Fort Snelling side. Don't see a need for the second Snelling station, though. I think Highland Park/Sibley Plaza could do with two stations, one just across the bridge serving the apartments/industrial area on Shepard road, and one just past Sibley Plaza. And draw this with Hwy 5 interlined with Shepard, leaving the LRT on West 7th, and people would love it more.