Nicollet Mall

[NickP]

Out of the box idea, but could the bus shelters be turned into retail like news stands, food stands, something like that?

[Tom H.]

This will necessitate a change to the planned route for the F Line, which had a preliminary routing down Nicollet Mall I believe. I suppose they'll have to either move it to Hennepin and share stations with the E Line, or go on Marq-2 or even 3rd Ave.

It feels a bit like musical chairs, trying to fit express bus routes, Orange Line, E/F Lines, local bus routes all through the constrained north-south geography of DT Mpls. Marq-2 is/was at capacity at rush hours, Hennepin is Hennepin, and Nicollet will now be potentially off the table. I mentioned a north-south transit tunnel somewhat tongue-in-cheek earlier, but what is the long-term plan otherwise? Turn Hennepin into a transit/ped mall?

If you really wanted to dream big, you could imagine a transit tunnel(s) with south portals tying into the new 35W transit access ramp, and a north portal where the Post Office parking ramp is now, tying into Hennepin. And as a kicker, build it big enough to host a north-south LRT line!

[Trademark]

Signal priority could solve all of the operations issues on Nicollet Mall. Wake me up when Frey decides to close Washington Ave to cars in order to activate the street space.

[Silophant]

It's not clear to me that signal priority would fix the 10mph speed limit, or buses stacking up behind a bus that's delayed to let a wheelchair user board because the serpentine curve that looks so nice on an aerial view makes it difficult or impossible to pass. But the next time I spend 10 minutes sitting still on Nicollet because the 18 in front of my 11 has sat through three green lights in a row, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that my inconvenience is, somehow, sticking it to the downtown bigwigs.

[grant1simons2]

Weird idea, but could we maybe remove parking on Marq/2nd and have Northbound buses on Marq and Southbound on 2nd? And maybe make the post office a more prominent terminus/transfer point?

[Trademark]

It's not clear to me that signal priority would fix the 10mph speed limit, or buses stacking up behind a bus that's delayed to let a wheelchair user board because the serpentine curve that looks so nice on an aerial view makes it difficult or impossible to pass. But the next time I spend 10 minutes sitting still on Nicollet because the 18 in front of my 11 has sat through three green lights in a row, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that my inconvenience is, somehow, sticking it to the downtown bigwigs.

First of all, the 10 mph speed limit is a policy decision, and I agree that there are too many routes on Nicollet Mall. That's probably the biggest problem besides signal priority.

It should just be Central and Nicollet buses on there. 2 bus routes with signal priority, 20 mph speed limit, and stops every 2-3 blocks will run quickly. The 25 can go to Hennepin. The 17 should probably end at Uptown Transit Center once the E Line opens (Bus service on 24th street isn't really necessary due to how close the 2, 4, 6, and 18 is). The 11 is close to the D Line and the 18 for most of it's running length and also could probably be cut in return for greater frequency on other city routes.

For the Northeast section of the 11 and 17, it could probably be consolidated on University and continue towards the U, and into St Paul. Possibly as a continuation of the 63.

Not every route needs to run to downtown. If we can consolidate a few routes we can start to see things like every city route being at or close to high frequency. Walking/Rolling a half mile to a bus stop is reasonable and we expect it in almost every other area of our network.

[Nick]

Seven and a half years later and, still, no one is in charge of anything.

https://streets.mn/2015/10/28/downtown- ... elsewhere/

[Tcmetro]

Capacity on Marquette & 2nd won't be a problem for a long time. Metro Transit is planning to cut a lot of the suspended routes as part of the Network Now initiative. Moving Nicollet buses to Marquette & 2nd does put bus riders on the empty office streets away from pretty much all the stores and the library. Also makes transfers to the light rail more difficult.

[Silophant]

It's not clear to me that signal priority would fix the 10mph speed limit, or buses stacking up behind a bus that's delayed to let a wheelchair user board because the serpentine curve that looks so nice on an aerial view makes it difficult or impossible to pass. But the next time I spend 10 minutes sitting still on Nicollet because the 18 in front of my 11 has sat through three green lights in a row, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that my inconvenience is, somehow, sticking it to the downtown bigwigs.

First of all, the 10 mph speed limit is a policy decision, and I agree that there are too many routes on Nicollet Mall. That's probably the biggest problem besides signal priority.

It should just be Central and Nicollet buses on there. 2 bus routes with signal priority, 20 mph speed limit, and stops every 2-3 blocks will run quickly. The 25 can go to Hennepin. The 17 should probably end at Uptown Transit Center once the E Line opens (Bus service on 24th street isn't really necessary due to how close the 2, 4, 6, and 18 is). The 11 is close to the D Line and the 18 for most of it's running length and also could probably be cut in return for greater frequency on other city routes.

For the Northeast section of the 11 and 17, it could probably be consolidated on University and continue towards the U, and into St Paul. Possibly as a continuation of the 63.

Not every route needs to run to downtown. If we can consolidate a few routes we can start to see things like every city route being at or close to high frequency. Walking/Rolling a half mile to a bus stop is reasonable and we expect it in almost every other area of our network.

This all makes sense to me, and I say that as someone who currently has a one-seat ride from home to work on the 11. I'd have no problem trading that for a faster ride with a transfer at 2nd/1st NE, once the E Line starts and there's 10-minute service across the Hennepin bridge instead of the half-hourly service the 6 currently provides. I'm hoping the Network Now program really takes a hard look at these kinds of things, and isn't just "which routes should we restore back to exactly how they were in 2019, and which go away forever?"

[Anondson]

Seven and a half years later and, still, no one is in charge of anything.

https://streets.mn/2015/10/28/downtown- ... elsewhere/

I was remembering this one. This was a great post.

[Bakken2016]

Move all buses to Hennepin Ave, put down 24/7 bus lanes.

[Nick]

Capacity on Marquette & 2nd won't be a problem for a long time. Metro Transit is planning to cut a lot of the suspended routes as part of the Network Now initiative. Moving Nicollet buses to Marquette & 2nd does put bus riders on the empty office streets away from pretty much all the stores and the library. Also makes transfers to the light rail more difficult.

Now, that's correct, but my understanding was that Marq2 (while clearly a good idea) was running at or over capacity in 2019.

Frankly, at this point, I don't really know that Nicollet Mall (or Hennepin) itself is much of a trip generator. I would just maximize for speed and system legibility. If the ground level restaurant/retail situation improves, great.

[grant1simons2]

Capacity on Marquette & 2nd won't be a problem for a long time. Metro Transit is planning to cut a lot of the suspended routes as part of the Network Now initiative. Moving Nicollet buses to Marquette & 2nd does put bus riders on the empty office streets away from pretty much all the stores and the library. Also makes transfers to the light rail more difficult.

What stores?

[StandishGuy]

It's 1980's thinking to devote two major north south streets (Marquette & 2nd Avenue) to serve suburban transit that only operates at peak times and whose ridership has cratered. Metro Transit's highest ridership routes need to move off painfully slow Nicollet Mall. Plus, Minneapolis shouldn't have to dedicate all that road space to serve suburban riders who have not, and likely will not, come back to transit in big numbers.

Geez... the region is spending $3 billion on the Green Line extension to get southwest folks into downtown and probably $2+ billion to get them from the northwest. All so they can have convenient bus service and affordable parking spaces in downtown...

Part of making downtown desirable for new residents is the fact that is centrally located and close to other cool neighborhoods like Uptown and Northeast. Making local bus connections to those places faster and more pleasant will reap many benefits back and forth.

[grant1simons2]

4th and 5th would be prime suburban bus routing. Even split between 94 and 394, simple access to 35W, right past City Hall and the Courthouse. Marq/2nd are fantastic for local services since it's even split between Hennepin and Central bridges.

[Hero]

This is great! I hope they didn't pay much for the idea of a pedestrian Nicollet when they could have just asked a random person on the street or held a poll.

To reduce the bus traffic from the suburbs why not use the orange, blue and green line to bring riders into downtown? This would free up those suburban buses to run more frequent trips to feed the lines into downtown.

[Tom H.]

To reduce the bus traffic from the suburbs why not use the orange, blue and green line to bring riders into downtown? This would free up those suburban buses to run more frequent trips to feed the lines into downtown.

This is easier said than done with the opt-out providers. As a former SWT rider, I must say that people geniunely do enjoy and prefer the comfy coach busses, especially when (in the pre-Covid days) they had basically continuous headways in the AM and PM rush hours.

Assuming overall transit demand to DT Mpls rebounds by 2027, I think there will still be a strong demand for the rush-hour service to downtown (route 690) and, to a lesser extent, U of M (695) even once SWLRT is running. If it doesn't, and LRT headways are comparable to rush-hour express bus headways, then maybe demand dries up for that service and SWT reallocates to local feeder service instead. The express service should still retain a significant time advantage (on good weather / traffic days) so I can still see commuters choosing it over the train. I'm not sure whether or to what extent "rail bias" still exists given the sorry state of transit safety at the present moment.

[Silophant]

There was a joint presentation from Public Works and Metro Transit to the Council today on the legislative directive to study removing buses from Nicollet Mall. (Report version).

Notably, there's a (soft?) deadline in play - Metro Transit needs to inform the FTA by April if there's going to be a change in the F Line routing. I'm hoping that'll happen even if the question of the other routes is punted again - an aBRT route deserves better than to be intentionally detoured weekly or more.

[Bakken2016]

There was a joint presentation from Public Works and Metro Transit to the Council today on the legislative directive to study removing buses from Nicollet Mall. (Report version).

Notably, there's a (soft?) deadline in play - Metro Transit needs to inform the FTA by April if there's going to be a change in the F Line routing. I'm hoping that'll happen even if the question of the other routes is punted again - an aBRT route deserves better than to be intentionally detoured weekly or more.

I'm leaning that we put the 10/18/F Line on Hennepin Ave(BRT stations already exist), while we move the 11/17/25 over to 3rd Ave.

[daveybabymsp]

There was a joint presentation from Public Works and Metro Transit to the Council today on the legislative directive to study removing buses from Nicollet Mall. (Report version).

Notably, there's a (soft?) deadline in play - Metro Transit needs to inform the FTA by April if there's going to be a change in the F Line routing. I'm hoping that'll happen even if the question of the other routes is punted again - an aBRT route deserves better than to be intentionally detoured weekly or more.

I'm leaning that we put the 10/18/F Line on Hennepin Ave(BRT stations already exist), while we move the 11/17/25 over to 3rd Ave.

Seems like if we take the F line off Nicollet and don’t use 2nd/marquette then it should definitely go on 3rd instead of detouring all the way to Hennepin. It is already coming across the 3rd Ave bridge