Nicollet Mall
Re: Nicollet Mall
I go back and forth on whether it would be preferable to shift the future BRT routes (10/18) to 3rd or to Hennepin. Hennepin would have the advantage of already having BRT stations and thus seamless connections to the E Line, as well as still being within a block of Nicollet so it's not too much of a change for people's existing routines. 3rd Ave is more direct for routes crossing the 3rd Ave bridge, and the Hennepin Ave bus connections could also be made in Old St. Anthony (once we get to where every 4/6/E Line trip crosses the river). So, that's more efficient, for sure, but a bigger change to peoples existing routines.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
-
- Wells Fargo Center
- Posts: 1741
- Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
- Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)
Re: Nicollet Mall
Why not just use Marquette and 2nd? The infrastructure is all there and underutilized and I doubt the express bus network is ever coming back like it once was.
-
- Wells Fargo Center
- Posts: 1073
- Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:40 pm
- Location: North Loop
Re: Nicollet Mall
Connections on 5th St and 7th St become tricky in my opinion, you want them to be smooth and seamless, and Marq/2 doesn't do that as well as Hennepin or 3rd.Tcmetro wrote: December 6th, 2023, 6:39 pm Why not just use Marquette and 2nd? The infrastructure is all there and underutilized and I doubt the express bus network is ever coming back like it once was.
Re: Nicollet Mall
Hindsight is 20/20, but the Nicollet BRT stations on 7th and 8th really should have been between Nicollet and Marquette instead of between Nicollet and Hennepin.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
-
- Nicollet Mall
- Posts: 146
- Joined: December 30th, 2021, 12:19 pm
Re: Nicollet Mall
I always read that BRT is way more flexible than LRT… if 2nd/marq makes the most sense but connections aren’t great let’s move the station!
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6191
- Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
- Location: Standish-Ericsson
Re: Nicollet Mall
If I could redo everything from scratch in a world with Nicollet as a bike/ped mall and no Marq2 infrastructure in place...
The ideal spacing for the N-S bus routes while still getting close enough to the major destinations would be Hennepin (bus lanes) and 2nd Ave S (two-way transitway). Nicollet Mall would be vehicle free, while Marquette would more or less be a normal two-way car-oriented street accommodating on-street parking, deliveries, parking garage entrances, etc. But unfortunately 2nd Ave S doesn't make for good connections to LRT, so I'm not sure what to do there. You could have buses switch over to 3rd Ave at 6th/7th Street to make the LRT connection at Govt Plaza Station and set them up to cross the river on 3rd. That works but doesn't make for very legible transit service.
Having bus routes concentrated on Hennepin and 3rd Ave S is fairly ideal route spacing for the northern half of downtown, down to say 5th or 6th St. But down at 11th/12th, Hennepin and 3rd Ave S are a half-mile apart! I just don't believe they'll make it that hard to catch a N-S bus from e.g. Orchestra Hall.
The ideal spacing for the N-S bus routes while still getting close enough to the major destinations would be Hennepin (bus lanes) and 2nd Ave S (two-way transitway). Nicollet Mall would be vehicle free, while Marquette would more or less be a normal two-way car-oriented street accommodating on-street parking, deliveries, parking garage entrances, etc. But unfortunately 2nd Ave S doesn't make for good connections to LRT, so I'm not sure what to do there. You could have buses switch over to 3rd Ave at 6th/7th Street to make the LRT connection at Govt Plaza Station and set them up to cross the river on 3rd. That works but doesn't make for very legible transit service.
Having bus routes concentrated on Hennepin and 3rd Ave S is fairly ideal route spacing for the northern half of downtown, down to say 5th or 6th St. But down at 11th/12th, Hennepin and 3rd Ave S are a half-mile apart! I just don't believe they'll make it that hard to catch a N-S bus from e.g. Orchestra Hall.
Re: Nicollet Mall
Since everything (except the 11, I guess) would have to get back to Nicollet at the south end anyway, running down Hennepin would mean using 11th/12th to connect back to Nicollet, or just 12th if the Orange Line contraflow lane was extended to Hennepin (or all the way to Linden/394, if we're thinking big. That would keep all of Nicollet within two blocks of a stop, though it would get a little circuitious for the buses crossing the river on 3rd. Might be worth it, though, if we can get bus lanes on Hennepin. Honestly I've convinced myself that the 11 should do that regardless of what happens to the other buses.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6191
- Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
- Location: Standish-Ericsson
Re: Nicollet Mall
Buses may come off of Nicollet Mall, but not for awhile: https://www.downtownvoices.news/posts/b ... for-awhile
Re: Nicollet Mall
If moving the buses off of Nicollet does end up becoming the catalyst for us to get two north-south transit corridors with bus lanes, that would be a pretty good trade. Wonder if they'd also consider moving the Orange Line to 3rd Ave in this scenario? With no other active N-S BRT corridors in downtown, it makes sense to have the Orange Line just continue to stop at the same locations for now as the 535 it replaced, but once the F Line (and whatever letter the Rt. 18 becomes) stations are in place on 3rd, having the Orange Line use those same high-amenity stations for its frequent all-day service would be better.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
Re: Nicollet Mall
The city has a webpage up for the Nicollet Mall pedestrianization project. There's also a survey, which is good, since both currently scheduled in person feedback events are this week, at midday. A little disappointing, as someone who rides buses on Nicollet regularly but no longer works downtown.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
-
- is great.
- Posts: 5951
- Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
- Location: Minneapolis
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 6 times
Re: Nicollet Mall
I know different people use downtown for different reasons, but to me, the Third Avenue alignment feels so far removed form the major entertainment drivers (Hennepin Ave Theaters, Warehouse District, Target Center, Target Field). My preference would be local service on Marquette.
Re: Nicollet Mall
Same thought here. Expand the usage of Marq2, maybe even look at making those bus/transit only when we get around to the streetcar discussion. I can imagine a vibrant core with three blocks where it is Peds only, then directional transit. Removing auto traffic would only be an issue for access to parking ramps… hmm. Maybe retaining one lane for autos, 3 lanes for transit or 2 lanes and a buffer/median to make it hostile to autos. While we’re at it, remove autos from 5th St!
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6191
- Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
- Location: Standish-Ericsson
Re: Nicollet Mall
From the survey:
Going with the Option 2 plan of "local buses on Marquette, express on 2nd" including bidirectional curbside bus lanes would mean no more off-peak and weekend parking on both streets. I assume under that scenario that Marquette's bus lanes would be 24/7, but maybe the curbside bus lanes on 2nd Ave would allow off-peak and weekend parking (under that plan, the Orange Line is proposed to be on Marquette with the locals, not on 2nd with the expresses).Option 1: Marquette and 2nd Avenue one-way pair
*Moves most Nicollet Mall transit service (routes 10, 17, and 18 and future BRT) to Marquette Avenue (southbound) and 2nd Avenue (northbound).
*Routes would operate alongside express routes using the existing bus only lanes in the same direction as today.
*Routes 11 and 25 would move to Hennepin Avenue.
Option 2: Marquette and 2nd Avenue two-way traffic
*Moves most Nicollet Mall transit service (routes 10, 17, and 18 and future BRT) in both directions to bus only lanes on a redesigned Marquette Avenue that would become two-way for buses and other traffic.
*Buses would use bus lanes in each direction.
*Express routes in both directions would move to bus only lanes on 2nd Avenue.
*Routes 11 and 25 would move to Hennepin Avenue.
*Removes parking.
Option 3: 3rd Avenue two-way traffic
*Moves most Nicollet Mall transit service (routes 10, 17, and 18 and future BRT) to a reconfigured Third Avenue that would become two-way for buses and other traffic.
*Buses would use bus lanes in each direction.
*Maintains and improves separated bike lanes on 3rd Avenue.
*Routes 11 and 25 would move to Hennepin Avenue.
*Express service and the Orange Line would remain on Marquette and 2nd Avenues like today.
Zooming out, that would mean no on-street parking on Hennepin, Nicollet, Marquette, 2nd, and 3rd Avenues. Street parking in the CBD would be effectively limited to the numbered Streets. Idk...that seems less than ideal, when you consider other curbside needs like delivery, ridehail, etc.
I agree that 3rd Avenue is a bit far from where most people are trying to go, but OTOH ideally there should be one local route that runs straight up 3rd and continues over the bridge without making any turns or jogs. The 11 would seem the most obvious fit for that...except that the 11 is slated to be a Hennepin Ave route, so it's not even part of the Marq2/3rd conversation. IDK...maybe the 11 and 17 need to swap their NE segments so that the 11 can just stay on 3rd Avenue.
What I really don't like about the Option 3 plan bringing 3rd Avenue into the mix is that there would be buses on Marquette, 2nd and 3rd...that just doesn't seem like the best alternative.
Right now I think I'm on Option 1, which is to use Marq2 as it is today for local & express routes. The infrastructure is already there. Instead of spending money modifying Marq2, spend that money doing a refresh of Nicollet Mall itself. Even though the new Nicollet is only like 7 years old, I would still support spending $10-15MM or so on an early mid-lifecycle refresh. Even if nothing was changing, Nicollet would probably be due for a refresh of some of the concrete surfaces, bus shelters, etc. at 15 years old. So really we would just be making those investments about 5 years earlier than planned. If we're serious about Nicollet being a successful pedestrian and special event space, I think it's extremely shortsighted to think it's gonna happen without significant changes to the infrastructure.
Re: Nicollet Mall
The issue with having the 11 cross the river on 3rd Ave is that 2nd St NE doesn't connect to Central. The 11 has to use the Hennepin bridge in a way that none of the other DT-NE routes really do.
Spitballing, but what if we swapped the NE and South portions of the 11 and 17? So: Route 13 running from 2nd St NE through downtown on Hennepin, then down Nicollet to 24th and back to Hennepin to Uptown and out to SLP. Route 15 runs down Washington St NE to Central, then crosses the river on 3rd Ave and continues all the way down to 46th. A little weird to have the 13 leave Hennepin and rejoin it two miles south, but with the way Hennepin bends it's not really as weavey as it sounds.
Spitballing, but what if we swapped the NE and South portions of the 11 and 17? So: Route 13 running from 2nd St NE through downtown on Hennepin, then down Nicollet to 24th and back to Hennepin to Uptown and out to SLP. Route 15 runs down Washington St NE to Central, then crosses the river on 3rd Ave and continues all the way down to 46th. A little weird to have the 13 leave Hennepin and rejoin it two miles south, but with the way Hennepin bends it's not really as weavey as it sounds.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
-
- Landmark Center
- Posts: 209
- Joined: December 31st, 2023, 4:43 pm
- Location: The southwest suburbs
Re: Nicollet Mall
It's not an option, but what about putting local routes on two-way bus lanes along Marquette and express routes on two-way bus lanes along 2nd avenue? I fear mixing express + local routes (and the Orange Line) would worsen the bunching issues seen on Nicollet, not improve them.
This might be an extremely dumb (and dangerous) idea, but what about two-way contraflow shoulder bus lanes, where the buses operate opposite direction of the cars on the same side? I fear that parking or driving in these bus lanes will be an issue. Some bollards™ might help too.
Or, fully convert Marquette to a four lane bus-only stroad (two lanes in each direction) with all north-south buses operating on it? Honestly that sounds pretty cool and a haven for bus photographers.
This might be an extremely dumb (and dangerous) idea, but what about two-way contraflow shoulder bus lanes, where the buses operate opposite direction of the cars on the same side? I fear that parking or driving in these bus lanes will be an issue. Some bollards™ might help too.
Or, fully convert Marquette to a four lane bus-only stroad (two lanes in each direction) with all north-south buses operating on it? Honestly that sounds pretty cool and a haven for bus photographers.
Re: Nicollet Mall
Unless I'm misreading something, a two-way Marquette corridor for local buses and a two-way 2nd Ave corridor for expresses is indeed the second proposal in the survey.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
-
- Landmark Center
- Posts: 209
- Joined: December 31st, 2023, 4:43 pm
- Location: The southwest suburbs
Re: Nicollet Mall
Oh yeah, my bad. I must have misunderstood what I looked at. Whoops! Yeah, I like that one the best.
-
- is great.
- Posts: 5951
- Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
- Location: Minneapolis
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 6 times
Re: Nicollet Mall
Did we collectively decide that contra flow bus lanes are bad at some point? If so, why?
I think Option 2, but with one way traffic for automobiles, would be a better solution, and allow for decent left hand turn movements.
I think Option 2, but with one way traffic for automobiles, would be a better solution, and allow for decent left hand turn movements.
Re: Nicollet Mall
So, both Marquette and 2nd would have a bus lane in each direction by the curbs, and then two one-way traffic lanes between them, NB on Marquette and SB on 2nd (or vice versa)? I agree that that would probably work better than two-way traffic with no left-turn lanes, that's just going to lead to the bus lanes filling up with cars passing a stuck left-turner. I think contraflow bus lanes are still acceptable, they just put one in on 12th St with the Orange Line.
As much as I love the idea of the solution to slow buses on the Nicollet transit mall being "move them over to a Marquette transit mall, but focused on being usable for buses instead of being pretty", I don't think it's feasible to also close Marquette to private vehicles after 60 years of every major building putting their garage/loading dock entrances there because Nicollet was closed.
As much as I love the idea of the solution to slow buses on the Nicollet transit mall being "move them over to a Marquette transit mall, but focused on being usable for buses instead of being pretty", I don't think it's feasible to also close Marquette to private vehicles after 60 years of every major building putting their garage/loading dock entrances there because Nicollet was closed.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]