Nicollet Mall
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Re: Nicollet Mall
My vote is for 3rd Avenue. I understand it's a couple blocks removed from the heart of the CBD, but A) I'd argue that matters less than it used to as WFH has increased and B) I think it would be great to have services enter and exit downtown without having to make any turns (i.e., enter from the south on 3rd Ave over 94, and leave on the 3rd Ave Bridge over the river.)
Turns downtown on the bus always seem to take forever, and I think they make the system less legible. The Marq2 options would all require each bus make at least two turns downtown, whereas the 3rd Ave option, if done right, wouldn't require any turns downtown for some routes (though I expect most will still require at least one.)
Fewer turns and jogs is good for bus reliability and legibility, so my vote is 3rd.
Turns downtown on the bus always seem to take forever, and I think they make the system less legible. The Marq2 options would all require each bus make at least two turns downtown, whereas the 3rd Ave option, if done right, wouldn't require any turns downtown for some routes (though I expect most will still require at least one.)
Fewer turns and jogs is good for bus reliability and legibility, so my vote is 3rd.
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Re: Nicollet Mall
Yes, that's what I'd propose.Silophant wrote: August 30th, 2024, 8:17 am So, both Marquette and 2nd would have a bus lane in each direction by the curbs, and then two one-way traffic lanes between them, NB on Marquette and SB on 2nd (or vice versa)?
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Re: Nicollet Mall
First, I'd argue that with WFH, the CBD is less important that it used to be, and now the entertainment uses are more critical, and they're even more eccentric to the west of 3rd Avenue than the CBD is.thespeedmccool wrote: August 30th, 2024, 9:38 am My vote is for 3rd Avenue. I understand it's a couple blocks removed from the heart of the CBD, but A) I'd argue that matters less than it used to as WFH has increased and B) I think it would be great to have services enter and exit downtown without having to make any turns (i.e., enter from the south on 3rd Ave over 94, and leave on the 3rd Ave Bridge over the river.)
Second, I'm fairly certain that the buses would still need to turn on the south side of downtown, likely at Grant or possibly on a bus-only 11th, if the Marquette option were selected. At least for the 17 and 18, you're going to want them to serve Nicollet all of the way into downtown.
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Re: Nicollet Mall
To back this conversation up a bit, how many blocks of Nicollet Mall are really being considered for "pedestrianization"? I understand that the City's survey about transit options considers the full length of the mall. But is that the best plan? Wouldn't it be better to incrementally pedestrianize a shorter segment that can actually be programmed with events? I'm not suggesting that buses should jog on and off the mall, as that would be illegible transit. But what is the actual proposal here?
I put pedestrianization in snark quotes because until the City proposes to spend significant dollars (millions) on refurbishing Nicollet Mall, all we're really talking about is turning it into a former transit mall that no longer has buses. Nothing about the action of removing buses automatically makes Nicollet a better place, aside from the immediate improvement to sidewalk patio dining (which at this point is down to a pretty pathetic small handful of restaurants).
I put pedestrianization in snark quotes because until the City proposes to spend significant dollars (millions) on refurbishing Nicollet Mall, all we're really talking about is turning it into a former transit mall that no longer has buses. Nothing about the action of removing buses automatically makes Nicollet a better place, aside from the immediate improvement to sidewalk patio dining (which at this point is down to a pretty pathetic small handful of restaurants).
Re: Nicollet Mall
Well, actually removing buses from the Mall is two years away, so there's plenty of time to come up with those plans. Not that the city government has been all that nimble lately, even by governmental standards.
Joey Senkyr
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Re: Nicollet Mall
https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cities ... e-district
https://www.fox9.com/news/minneapolis-n ... n-downtown
^ Interesting articles about recent comments Frey made surrounding connecting Nicollet Mall to the river. I'll leave these two quotes here:
"The intrigue: Frey and Council Member Michael Rainville both told reporters they hope to connect Nicollet Mall to the Mississippi Riverfront.
That would require persuading the U.S. Postal Service to bulldoze its parking garage adjacent to Hennepin Avenue."
"So the U.S. Post Office, I commit to getting them to see the wisdom of taking down that butt ugly parking ramp that's going to block the river from Nicollet Mall. I'm sure we can find a compromise," said Minneapolis City Council member Michael Rainville at that same press conference.
So.. while the idea sounds lovely, I'm wondering in practice it would actually work? The Mall basically intersects with Hennepin and 1st St if it were to continue north. Would Nicollet run immediately adjacent to Hennepin for a block if the parking garage were gone? It doesn't seem like there is a ton of room there to add another intersection by only tearing down 1 parking garage. Unless they are talking about doing something with the River Towers property as well?
https://www.fox9.com/news/minneapolis-n ... n-downtown
^ Interesting articles about recent comments Frey made surrounding connecting Nicollet Mall to the river. I'll leave these two quotes here:
"The intrigue: Frey and Council Member Michael Rainville both told reporters they hope to connect Nicollet Mall to the Mississippi Riverfront.
That would require persuading the U.S. Postal Service to bulldoze its parking garage adjacent to Hennepin Avenue."
"So the U.S. Post Office, I commit to getting them to see the wisdom of taking down that butt ugly parking ramp that's going to block the river from Nicollet Mall. I'm sure we can find a compromise," said Minneapolis City Council member Michael Rainville at that same press conference.
So.. while the idea sounds lovely, I'm wondering in practice it would actually work? The Mall basically intersects with Hennepin and 1st St if it were to continue north. Would Nicollet run immediately adjacent to Hennepin for a block if the parking garage were gone? It doesn't seem like there is a ton of room there to add another intersection by only tearing down 1 parking garage. Unless they are talking about doing something with the River Towers property as well?
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Re: Nicollet Mall
Would they need to make another intersection there? Continuing the mall through the pillars of the northwestern national life insurance building, through gateway park, and to a plaza or whatever they end up putting where the parking garage is currently seems feasible. The northwestern national life insurance building also seems perfect for reuse as a museum space over any other I think. It already has a really stately presence to it.
I'm curious what the traffic counts for S 1st St in front of the post office look like. Could be possible to close that small bit of it between gateway park and the river off to traffic? There's a vision of a really activated riverfront without the parking garage there if the space is utilized correctly.
I'm curious what the traffic counts for S 1st St in front of the post office look like. Could be possible to close that small bit of it between gateway park and the river off to traffic? There's a vision of a really activated riverfront without the parking garage there if the space is utilized correctly.
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Re: Nicollet Mall
I don't think that they're proposing to literally extend Nicollet Mall. Really just to extend an enhanced pedestrian connection to the river. Something along these lines has been discussed for a long time, going back at least to the River First plan in 2012.
As seen on page 38 here.
As seen on page 38 here.
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Re: Nicollet Mall
A lot has changed since the image on page 38. The lots northwest and southwest of the intersection of Nicollet and 3rd were simply surface parking (which they show as being revamped into parkland). Now a couple of towers sit on both properties kitty corner to that intersection.MNdible wrote: November 4th, 2024, 10:24 am I don't think that they're proposing to literally extend Nicollet Mall. Really just to extend an enhanced pedestrian connection to the river. Something along these lines has been discussed for a long time, going back at least to the River First plan in 2012.
As seen on page 38 here.
It just seems that the gains are small because the Hennepin Ave bridge already connects Nicollet to the river. Yes, a long + vegetated side to the river (similar to what is done along the federal reserve building) could be nice, but is it worth the cost of removing an entire parking ramp for? My guess is that the Hennepin and 1st intersection will be seen as an unfriendly bottleneck if that is the intersection that people are supposed to use to cross over to the river. The connection along the Northwestern National Life Building definitely needs to be improved too if that's the desired path. At least take out the stairs and put in ramps so that the cyclists can navigate directly through.
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Re: Nicollet Mall
Fun fact, that spot used to be a park. https://geo.lib.umn.edu/minneapolis/y1938/MP-3-264.jpg
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.
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Re: Nicollet Mall
The three options for a pedestrian Nicollet, and moving transit.
https://www.startribune.com/here-are-mi ... /601212083
https://www.startribune.com/here-are-mi ... /601212083
Re: Nicollet Mall
Nice to see that the Marquette and 2nd options would run buses up to 1st St before turning to get over to 3rd, instead of forcing a left turn of off Washington in each direction. That could add another 45-60 seconds to the time savings for the 10 and 17.
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Re: Nicollet Mall
So why is this under serious consideration now but was not a decade ago when the state and city spent $5 million per block to rebuilt Nicollet?
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Re: Nicollet Mall
My guess is that a perfect storm of factors seem to be making this a priority now:
- A mayor up for reelection struggling to find things he can point at to show he's actually able to affect positive change, despite being the most powerful Minneapolis mayor ever.
- That same mayor's favorite constituency is the downtown business community who equate "I can see a poor person from my office" with "crime is out of control."
- Transit ridership is still in recovery mode, with choice commuters remaining at a low point, so there aren't a lot of well-to-do white collar transit riders who might show up and argue with them about this choice.
- The councilperson who pushed for this most aggressively now has a do-nothing, six figure "special projects" job at City Hall.
- A mayor up for reelection struggling to find things he can point at to show he's actually able to affect positive change, despite being the most powerful Minneapolis mayor ever.
- That same mayor's favorite constituency is the downtown business community who equate "I can see a poor person from my office" with "crime is out of control."
- Transit ridership is still in recovery mode, with choice commuters remaining at a low point, so there aren't a lot of well-to-do white collar transit riders who might show up and argue with them about this choice.
- The councilperson who pushed for this most aggressively now has a do-nothing, six figure "special projects" job at City Hall.
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Re: Nicollet Mall
Huh. Has anything major happened in the last five years? Nah.mattaudio wrote: January 28th, 2025, 7:43 am So why is this under serious consideration now but was not a decade ago when the state and city spent $5 million per block to rebuilt Nicollet?
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Re: Nicollet Mall
The Met Council Transportation Committee discussed this yesterday, and many of the members of the committee were skeptical of moving Transit off Nicollet Mall.