Nicollet Mall

[trigonalmayhem]

Newsflash for you social justice warriors: Those yuppies and families are the ones making and spending the money to subsidize the lives of the poor and minorities. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or you can kiss this urban renaissance goodbye.

Newsflash: this "social justice warrior" (which by the way is hilarious as a pejorative term--I'll wear it with pride) is also a white yuppie who just happens to also care about issues of equity and how things affect people unlike me. People like me have all the advantages in life and seeing one more thing built for people "like me" with no consideration given to anyone else actually bothers me. If you think being on top means you get to ignore everyone else and feel smug for the sad concessions made to the less fortunate then I truly pity you.

[acs]

What the heck do you think this project is? This is a street reconstruction to increase commercial activity for nearby businesses, nothing more. Do want this to be the defining moment where all preconceived notions of race and behavior change and racial barriers around the city come crashing down and everyone lives happily forever? Because that just isn't going to happen. Nowhere in this project do I see anything about "cracking down" on illegal behavior which may or may not unfairly target minorities or certain economic groups. In fact, the buses are staying along with the shelters and maybe a streetcar down the line. At the same time we're having a much more mature conversation over in the transportation forum about building an east/west transit spine which could take buses off Nicollet and vastly improve the user experience of local route transit users.

[trigonalmayhem]

No one project will fix things, I'm not an idealistic child. But thinking that the design of public spaces has no impact on public interactions is absurd. You're right that the current purpose is just focused on commerce and my point is that this approach is wrong because it ignores the other uses and users of the space. Nicollet mall does not belong to commercial interests alone. It belongs to everyone.

[acs]

I'm not disagreeing with you that design can affect people's interactions, but why do you feel some groups or uses are being ignored? What part of the design do you disagree with and how does it harm a legitimate use for a public street? Except for the prohibition on cars, this design is trying to vastly upgrade the PUBLIC amenities of Nicollet mall which last time I checked meant everyone can use them. The role as a transit mall is maintained (at least until we can figure out something even better), the pedestrian experience is being significantly upgraded, and new public spaces are being created that can be enjoyed free of charge by anyone. The cops aren't going away, but nowhere is it proposed that they are going to be increased or become more heavy handed. Quite the opposite actually.

[EOst]

I live on Nicollet Mall , and many of my neighbors and I agree that having a very visible presence of "beat cops" downtown walking the streets ( including Nicollet Mall) would create a safer environment and better perception of security downtown. It would raise the behavioral expectations and tone down some of the unruly behaviors that have been elaborated on in this thread.

While I don't necessarily disagree, it's worth remembering that while this would probably make the Mall seem more welcoming to middle-class white people, it would also have a generally chilling effect for communities with historically fraught relationships with the police.

[xandrex]

I live on Nicollet Mall , and many of my neighbors and I agree that having a very visible presence of "beat cops" downtown walking the streets ( including Nicollet Mall) would create a safer environment and better perception of security downtown. It would raise the behavioral expectations and tone down some of the unruly behaviors that have been elaborated on in this thread.

While I don't necessarily disagree, it's worth remembering that while this would probably make the Mall seem more welcoming to middle-class white people, it would also have a generally chilling effect for communities with historically fraught relationships with the police.

That's definitely something that needs to be accounted for. But I don't know if we can say we shouldn't have a police presence (or decrease it or not increase it) because of that. The answer instead is to work toward a more humane police force. Police officers on foot, being able to interact with people on Nicollet Mall is probably a good thing. The windshield mentality of the police is almost certainly no good (even if it's often unintentional).

[Tyler]

Like any other daily user of Nicollet Mall, I have seen "sketchy" black people engaging in behavior that made me uncomfortable. Yelling, roughhousing, running, drug use, whatever.

But I also see sketchy white people doing the same thing there, every day. In fact, white people are the only people who have ever explicitly threatened me or those I was with on the Mall or on Hennepin. The way some people make this all about "black people" (especially imputing this to a problem with "black culture") is in some ways, I think, the most revealing part of this conversation.

And here we have the White Minnesotan way of calling someone a racist. Cultural differences, yo.

It’s not a problem with black culture. It’s a difference between cultures. Ever been to Italy (they like to yell!)? Japan (they don’t.)? Well, black people in America might as well be from a different country (not their own doing). Their cultural norms are different. They act differently. They are treated differently. It. Is. Reality.

[acs]

I just got back from NYC and stayed in Times Square. I know Nicollet Mall will never be the crossroads of the world, but if you want an example of vibrancy... my god I don't know if it's possible to get better than that. There were some things I noticed though which if proposed here I'm pretty sure would put people up in arms. First, there's a police station right in the middle of the crossroads sometimes with a big, prominent observation tower extended. There are foot cops and traffic cops, but there are also several mounted cops as well looming over the crowd. There are signs clearly saying tipping street performers is optional, and if you are feeling harassed you are encouraged to call the cops nearby. There are beggars too, not nearly as many as you would expect given the traffic, but they are there. And there are just a crap ton of people in general, families, tourists, businessmen going to all kinds of work, everything. NYC is a much, much more diverse city with far greater race and poverty issues than we can imagine. They made it work somehow.

[Nathan]

New Yorkers don't go to times square unless they have to. There's a huge difference between that and the utility of all types of people that Nicollet Mall has. Not too mention potential terrorism.

[John]

The answer instead is to work toward a more humane police force. Police officers on foot, being able to interact with people on Nicollet Mall is probably a good thing.

Yes, this creates better police engagement with the community, in addition to being a deterrent to crime etc. It's not to discriminate against anybody but rather to make everyone feel more secure. I mean Jesus Christ , isn't the ability to safely walk down a street without being harassed or harmed a basic human and civil right?

[min-chi-cbus]

Humm.... min-chi-cbus... Its interesting how defensive my post made you. I NEVER made any "holier-than-thou "I don't see color" BS" implications. All I did was simply point out some broad ignorance (that seems to surface regularly on this board). Although you might think curt examples of bigotry are refreshing, I personally do not - My response was both respectful and reasonable. If my words struck some chords within you, perhaps you need to do some further introspection.

"Your" didn't mean you, it was meant to be anybody (I.e. "Not your everyday hero").

Chill out.

[Tyler]

I mean Jesus Christ , isn't the ability to safely walk down a street without being harassed or harmed a basic human and civil right?

I agree with you guys, but the argument is way more nuanced than this. Look at FISHMANPET's first post. It's not only overtly criminal actions that make people uncomfortable. And we sure as hell know the threshold for police intervention is lower than that as well.

[Wedgeguy]

As I have said before, I have never had issues that I could not easily deal with. I have never felt unsafe walking along the mall. Even walking by some the BS that is going on around. PERCEPTION is what make the difference in most situations. This is the best example I can think of. When you meet a dog that you are unfamiliar with, if you give off the perception of being scare the dog will sense that and will most likely bark at you as it's own defense mechanism. If you give off the perception of being scared it can be taken different ways by different people. Some will perceive that fear and play off it, other will be see that fear and be pissed off because you stereotyped them, Other will look at you and laugh to themselves that this person must be fresh off the farm. I walk by nearly everyone and say hello when I'm walking down the mall. I love how it freaks some out. But in doing so I have acknowledge that they exist and they know that I know they are around so they know there will be no surprises with me. I see the semi drunk people screaming at each other, but I see that in other parts of the town too. I hear the name calling and bitch matches at just about any shopping center.

I agree that there can be more foot patrols on the mall as long as they are not harassing people. Having their presence puts a air that if they misbehave that there will be consequences. A majority of the minority community behaves themselves very well, so harassing innocent people for hang out will not fly. We all have to learn to except and live with our fellow man.

[Lancestar2]

Yes, to be blunt there is a lot of black youth that act a fool within 3 blocks of the public library mostly contained to the Nicollet Mall strip. It does at times piss me off and encourages me to stereotype. Yet, you guys calling for more police I think is wrong as well. Just look what happened recently in Chicago with stop and frisk just like it did in New York. Most people stopped and harassed were black people. Nicollet Mall's problems is mostly having to endure some lame insults, such as gay slurs or your to fat for that shirt ( I was just having a FAT day Jesus Christ! ) It's mostly perception and as Nic on fifth recently moved in along with the proposed Ritz block and Nicollet Hotel block also opening soon there will be more diversity and a better balance once again.

To sum up... don't worry about it. The problem will correct itself soon with more diversity. No need to make the area a pig pen I have never been attacked nor do I hear any stories about random people being attacked along Nicollet Mall. If your feeling threatened by a teenager in skinny jeans so tight they loose flexibility, or teenagers in baggy pants almost falling down doing a penguin walk to maintain there gravity defying loose pants... then perhaps you need to revaluate your fears and life choices.

[Wedgeguy]

Yes, to be blunt there is a lot of black youth that act a fool within 3 blocks of the public library mostly contained to the Nicollet Mall strip. It does at times piss me off and encourages me to stereotype. Yet, you guys calling for more police I think is wrong as well. Just look what happened recently in Chicago with stop and frisk just like it did in New York. Most people stopped and harassed were black people. Nicollet Mall's problems is mostly having to endure some lame insults, such as gay slurs or your to fat for that shirt ( I was just having a FAT day Jesus Christ! ) It's mostly perception and as Nic on fifth recently moved in along with the proposed Ritz block and Nicollet Hotel block also opening soon there will be more diversity and a better balance once again.

To sum up... don't worry about it. The problem will correct itself soon with more diversity. No need to make the area a pig pen I have never been attacked nor do I hear any stories about random people being attacked along Nicollet Mall. If your feeling threatened by a teenager in skinny jeans so tight they loose flexibility, or teenagers in baggy pants almost falling down doing a penguin walk to maintain there gravity defying loose pants... then perhaps you need to revaluate your fears and life choices.

I have to enjoy that last section, LOL, With those clothes on you could out run them with a cane and still get away or they would lose or rip their jeans!!!! I'm just saying that having the patrols along the mall would encourage better behavior and quell some of the suburban fears. I'm not talking people intimidation or harassment, but just a presence to let them know eyes that can call for back up are in the area.

[UrsusUrbanicus]

Nicollet Mall's problems is mostly having to endure some lame insults, such as gay slurs

This is why one should always travel with a Bear or two. Paws on parade are a powerful deterrent to problem humans.

[Wedgeguy]

Nicollet Mall's problems is mostly having to endure some lame insults, such as gay slurs

This is why one should always travel with a Bear or two. Paws on parade are a powerful deterrent to problem humans.

Is there a Bears R Us escort service number available?? LOL

[acs]

On the same topic:

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/04/03/spitting-laws

Quotes like this take sensible debates about racism and blow them straight into the realm of ridiculousness:

"We are dealing now with the vestiges of slavery still in our society and laws that are there," Council Member Cam Gordon said Friday at a rally alongside supporters who say the city's anti-spitting and anti-lurking ordinances are disproportionately enforced against people of color.

[xandrex]

Yes, to be blunt there is a lot of black youth that act a fool within 3 blocks of the public library mostly contained to the Nicollet Mall strip. It does at times piss me off and encourages me to stereotype. Yet, you guys calling for more police I think is wrong as well. Just look what happened recently in Chicago with stop and frisk just like it did in New York. Most people stopped and harassed were black people. Nicollet Mall's problems is mostly having to endure some lame insults, such as gay slurs or your to fat for that shirt ( I was just having a FAT day Jesus Christ! ) It's mostly perception and as Nic on fifth recently moved in along with the proposed Ritz block and Nicollet Hotel block also opening soon there will be more diversity and a better balance once again.

To sum up... don't worry about it. The problem will correct itself soon with more diversity. No need to make the area a pig pen I have never been attacked nor do I hear any stories about random people being attacked along Nicollet Mall. If your feeling threatened by a teenager in skinny jeans so tight they loose flexibility, or teenagers in baggy pants almost falling down doing a penguin walk to maintain there gravity defying loose pants... then perhaps you need to revaluate your fears and life choices.

Again, the solution when cops are aggressive is not to stop using cops. It's to make a better police force that understands who they protect. Getting them on their feet or on bikes on Nicollet Mall (and elsewhere) is one way to do that. Behaviors that might appear very aggressive from behind a windshield can look very different when you're out on the street and can hear what's going on.

I can't say I've personally ever been heckled (I have had to deal with very aggressive panhandlers at times, though) and I like to walk with confidence but disinterest...I rarely am bothered. But to write off others concerns about feeling uncomfortable about being called a gay slur or the aggressive panhandling or the drug dealing that happens on the Mall is to ignore why our transit mall is currently a fraction of its potential.

I also don't get how "more diversity" will fix this. Do you mean exposure to more cultures? Even if we weren't going to be a majority white city and metro for the foreseeable future, who among us--black or white, rich or poor, man or woman, straight or LGBT--wants to be exposed to generally distasteful behavior. When we pretend that this is only us not understanding other cultures, we're kind of slapping the face of the majority of folks who don't look like us who also believe in a minimum standard of acceptable behavior.

[Wedgeguy]

My idea when I say patrols are offices on foot or bike walking the mall. IF they are shoeing or harassing people for sitting on a bench then that is no acceptable. But they can be like security in a private mall that can walk up and say behave or move on. There does not have to be frisking or confrontation. But ever find yourself or someone else slamming on the breaks when there is an officer nearby that causes you to behave and be lawful. Maybe the thing to do is to have community leaders walking with them to be the voice of reason. Many times all you have to do is ask and they do what is said. But there will be some that give attitude back and then it is up to the officer as to what the next step will be. Call a car for back up or give them a choice of a ticket or moving along.