Suburban Transit (Opt-out Services Providers)

[Korh]

Is the 444 still timed roughly to come between the orange link? I remember talking with some coworkers who work along Egan Dr by Burnsville Center and we all agree there is no "good" way to bike the gap between the orange line and work, a few will attempt to brave Burnsville parkway, but most who do will hop off all they way at Bloomington Transit Center and bike a long winding route through the river bottoms

[Trademark]

It's probably time to revive the Orange Line Extension, and connect it down to the Burnsville Center area at least.

Definitely, it would make connections easier system wide. I wish they would've planned from the beginning to extend the BRT down Nicollet ave past Burnsville City Hall, Fairview Ridges Hospital and on to 42 with signal priority and bus lanes.

[DanPatchToget]

Considering that all the opt-outs are in the west metro (MVTA is kind of in the east metro, but most of their service is in the west metro), has any east metro suburb had an opt-out service or considered opting out of Metro Transit's service? The last thing we need is another opt-out, so I hope none of the suburbs in Metro Transit's service area ever consider the idea.

[Tcmetro]

No, only the south/west metro suburbs opted out. Minnetonka is also an opt-out but has an agreement with the Met Council to provide additional service instead of having their own system. The opt-out suburbs tend to be wealthier and wanted high quality downtown express service to be competitive.

Almost all the opt-outs were created between 1986 and 1990. In those days the East Metro had much better service, with better frequencies in the St. Paul and regular service to Stillwater, White Bear Lake, Woodbury, and Cottage Grove. A lot of those suburbs were a lot smaller back then. Now they are bigger and have comparatively little service.

After the opt-outs were created, the RTB/MTC/Met Council expanded suburban service through park and rides and daytime circulators and dial-a-rides. That seems to have been enough to appease the other locales.

[Korh]

I think that's a bit unlikely since weren't the opt outs because some some political meddling and statures in the late 80s to early 90s. Plus if we do I don't think well get another MVTA or SW, but something more akin to Plymouth Metrolink or Maple Grove Transit where they just run a few express buses and a dial-a-ride service for maybe Stillwater or Hudson

[DanPatchToget]

It's also worth mentioning all the opt-outs are members of the Suburban Transit Association, which "is the legislative advocacy group assuring regional suburban transit needs are prioritized properly by elected leaders" (from their website: https://www.suburbantransitassociation.com/). On one hand I understand needing to make sure suburbs get proper transit funding and service because, like them or not, they're a big part of our region. On the other hand, I think it can lead to an urban vs suburban/Metro Transit vs opt-outs divide, and there's the question of if the funding the opt-outs receive is being put to good use.

[Tcmetro]

The urban/suburban divide will exist either way. A lot of suburbs in the Metro Transit service area have bad service, so it largely shows which suburbs have prioritized transit service and which ones have not.

[J. Mc]

I guess technically Mendota Heights could join the MVTA, they currently only have fixed route service from MVTA routes 436 and 446. The rest of the, err, 'town' (subdivision??) is still all suspended Metro Transit lines. (75 branch, 415 and 452)

On a side note, were Bloomington and Edina ever possible opt-out candidates? The 538/539 used to be branded as the BE Line in the 2000s so I'm not sure if that was just part of a local route branding campaign at the time (Anoka County Traveler, Lakes Area Bus were others) or if they were some sort of service enhancement to keep them in Metro Transit.

I think that's a bit unlikely since weren't the opt outs because some some political meddling and statures in the late 80s to early 90s.

They came about originally because transit service was funded at the time through property taxes. Suburbs were dumping in vast amounts of revenue via property tax, but barely getting anything in return in some cases. So the legislature created the option to 'opt-out' where the suburb could keep their pool of money and fund their own service instead of sending everything to the MTC. Legally now, yes, I'm not sure if a suburb could chose to opt-out in the same fashion. Though I'm sure if a suburb decided to locally fund and create their own local route network no one would stop them. Actually South Saint Paul sort of did this for a couple years with DARTs running a circulator route to connect various senior/low income housing with some medical, social services, and shopping destinations.

[angrysuburbanite]

December 14th, 2023 SouthWest Transit Commission packet includes a couple of service changes for 2024 (we'll have to see if they actually implement and stick to any of them...):
- I-494 corridor Prime services along I-494 in Edina/Richfield/Bloomington to be replaced with a fixed route
- Two days of State Fair service restored
- Delivery of new electric coach buses (apparently 4 MCI D45 LE Charge buses, as per the Canadian Public Transit Database)

Full meeting packet: https://d3n9y02raazwpg.cloudfront.net/s ... 596391.pdf

[angrysuburbanite]

Also forgot to mention addition of service for the Renaissance Festival. Of all of these, I am most excited/interested with the I-494 service, which, if implemented correctly, could be a moderate success--this is one of the biggest service gaps in the Twin Cities in my opinion. It better not be weekdays/peak only!

[DanPatchToget]

MVTA service changes March 16th. https://www.mvta.com/news-items/mvta-se ... -march-16/

Highlights:
4Fun Bus returns with service operating Thursday-Sunday, and stops added at the Twin Cities Premium Outlet Mall in Eagan and Omry Apartments at Canterbury Park in Shakopee.

Route 498, operating between Marschall Road Transit Station and Southdale, will be discontinued.

Some little additions and some little subtractions on their express routes.

[angrysuburbanite]

I'm not surprised with 498 suspension. On the 2021 route analysis sheet from the Met Council, it had a passengers per service hour of 0.1 (something like 64 riders... a year). It's a kind of a shame, because that route is the only remnant of the suburb-to-suburb service experiment, but understandable. Also, fun fact: after its suspension, the Golden Triangle in EP will only have one route left, the once daily route 600.

[DanPatchToget]

I don't see it as a shame to shut down a route that was part of the much bigger Route 494 failure. To me it's a shame money is being burned on these experiments that are doomed to fail, especially the express routes that pretty much only serve suburban park & rides and light commercial/industrial areas. I don't know if politicians or legit route planners are making the call on where the buses go in these experiments, but they seem to just throw darts at a board, run the buses, and then drop the route when the funding for it is gone. Would be nice to have more accountability and consideration when funding becomes available for expanded service.

[angrysuburbanite]

That's fair. This route in particular seemed really random to me, I wish they used this money on better service on the I-494 strip in EP/Edina/Richfield/Bloomington, which is one of the few places I think a route like this could be successful/warranted.

[Trademark]

I don't see it as a shame to shut down a route that was part of the much bigger Route 494 failure. To me it's a shame money is being burned on these experiments that are doomed to fail, especially the express routes that pretty much only serve suburban park & rides and light commercial/industrial areas. I don't know if politicians or legit route planners are making the call on where the buses go in these experiments, but they seem to just throw darts at a board, run the buses, and then drop the route when the funding for it is gone. Would be nice to have more accountability and consideration when funding becomes available for expanded service.

Transit is not only supposed to serve ridership goals but also coverage goals. Yes some routes likely need to be cut, but also our suburbs for the most part have abysmal service. And as the suburbanization of poverty continues we will need to address it and not punish transit riders based on decisions that city council people weren't bold enough to make.

We need more suburban to suburban routes, I don't support em often as express routes, but either as suburban local or as highway BRT. Metro Transit serves the region not jus Mpls and St Paul and the only reason why we still have to deal with the scourge that is opt outs is because they're not willing to provide more suburban service

[DanPatchToget]

Saw on MVTA's Facebook page they added 5 ProMaster vans to the Connect fleet.

Also a person commented if they (specifically the Connect service) accepts GoTo cards, and MVTA responded "At the moment they do not, but we are exploring that option. More to come."

[angrysuburbanite]

https://www.mvta.com/news-items/county- ... brt-study/

MVTA finally giving a go at frequent service on a fixed corridor? We shall see... but still awesome this is being considered in third and fourth ring suburbs!
I think the routing is okay, but should terminate in Downtown Shakopee instead of Mystic Lake and connect to the Marschall Road TC.

Would this be a letter aBRT line or the beginning of a separate system?

[DanPatchToget]

While it's great to see interest in improving suburban transit, this is a waste of time and money, and it would be much easier and cheaper to improve local bus routes like the 444 and 447. Throwing a lot of buses and building some fancy stations on a car sewer like County Road 42 won't change the low population density and pedestrian/transit user-hostile development and infrastructure along this corridor, and I speak from experience walking and using transit along County Road 42.

If BRT were built on this corridor it would perform worse than the Red Line, and at best the frequency would be every 30 minutes and several of the stations (each costing millions of dollars, assuming they go with a design the same or similar to existing BRT/aBRT stations in the region) would only get around a dozen riders per day at best.

[Korh]

Yeah while I say this as someone who works along the 42 corridor and would greatly benefit from this is unlikely. if MVTA really wanted to test the waters they could make the 444 a half hour service along the route (currently iirc its an hourly service because half the schedule service terminates at Burnsville center)

[Tcmetro]

MVTA already put the 447 in along the corridor that functions similar to how the CR 42 BRT concept would. It started with a 30 minute frequency, was dropped to 60 mins, and now 120 mins. They've also extended the 425/Orange Link during weekdays, and the 442 and 444 overlap to an extent.

CR 42 BRT itself is probably no more than consultant welfare. Housing isn't centered around the corridor, and the two major destinations are Burnsville Center and Apple Valley which are not much more than high concentrations of strip mall retail. Dakota and Scott Counties both want highly controlled access to the road, not walkable, transit-supportive environments.