Minneapolis Street Design

[schwinnletour]

Minneapolis hasn't had a traffic enforcement division since pre covid/GF. And with MPD's depleted numbers I doubt traffic enforcement is high on their to do list. If smaller firetrucks, raised crosswalks and narrower streets can slow traffic and save lives why not do it?

I'm not sure if MFD is advocating for it but I'd think sprinklers would save more lives than a large firetruck or a 4th firefighter.

"Between 2017 and 2021, about 150 people each year died or were severely injured in traffic crashes in Minneapolis. "

"Preliminary numbers compiled by the Minnesota Department of Public Safety State Fire Marshal Division (SFMD) say 53 people perished in fires."

I can't readily find the city data but considering Minneapolis is less than 10% of the state's population, it's probably ~5 or less people die in fires in Minneapolis per year.

Seems like designing a city streets around fire trucks being big enough to hold water when there's hydrants on every corner of the city should be evaluated more thoroughly since this is the very definition of the law of diminishing returns.

Thoughts?

[Mdcastle]

Wonder how much it would cost to custom order trucks that hold a sub-optimal amount of water?

Presumably paywalled article that just came out: Fire trucks can't get through and there's a lot of other issues Bryant Ave, so they're changing the design going forward.

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... 600269423/

Construction began last year on Phase 1, between 50th and 42nd streets, and mostly wrapped up in the late fall. After Anderson Kelliher drove the finished portion, she called it "probably the most cutting-edge street in the state of Minnesota." But it didn't work.
"We were very quickly into the winter alerted by both fire and EMS that they're having significant issues," Anderson Kelliher said, emphasizing that problems were apparent before the heavy snowfalls piled up.

Here's a sampling of those challenges:

• Driver's-side parking — on the left side of the street — was a failure. Many motorists parked well off the curb, especially once snowbanks formed, narrowing the street more than expected.
• Residents with driveways found the street too tight to back out. Some began to drive on the bikeway to get in and out safely.
• Stretches were too narrow for garbage trucks and plow trucks. The city began sending pickups to plow Bryant, which is a snow emergency route.
• At one point, a fire truck couldn't squeeze through, forcing it to back its way up the block. It wasn't on an emergency call, but officials said this sort of "life safety" risk was unacceptable.

City Council Vice President Linea Palmisano, whose 13th Ward encompasses the reconstructed stretch of Bryant, said her office received hundreds of emails and dozens of phone calls expressing "absolute desperation and pleas for help from our residents ... and from our own city staff." She added that she was frustrated it had come to this. "I'm not happy with how we, as a city, could not have predicted that outcome," she said.

Seems there were a lot more issues than "standard capacity fire trucks can't get through".

[minntransplant]

Wonder how much it would cost to custom order trucks that hold a sub-optimal amount of water?

Presumably paywalled article that just came out: Fire trucks can't get through and there's a lot of other issues Bryant Ave, so they're changing the design going forward.

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... 600269423/

Construction began last year on Phase 1, between 50th and 42nd streets, and mostly wrapped up in the late fall. After Anderson Kelliher drove the finished portion, she called it "probably the most cutting-edge street in the state of Minnesota." But it didn't work.
"We were very quickly into the winter alerted by both fire and EMS that they're having significant issues," Anderson Kelliher said, emphasizing that problems were apparent before the heavy snowfalls piled up.

Here's a sampling of those challenges:

• Driver's-side parking — on the left side of the street — was a failure. Many motorists parked well off the curb, especially once snowbanks formed, narrowing the street more than expected.
• Residents with driveways found the street too tight to back out. Some began to drive on the bikeway to get in and out safely.
• Stretches were too narrow for garbage trucks and plow trucks. The city began sending pickups to plow Bryant, which is a snow emergency route.
• At one point, a fire truck couldn't squeeze through, forcing it to back its way up the block. It wasn't on an emergency call, but officials said this sort of "life safety" risk was unacceptable.

City Council Vice President Linea Palmisano, whose 13th Ward encompasses the reconstructed stretch of Bryant, said her office received hundreds of emails and dozens of phone calls expressing "absolute desperation and pleas for help from our residents ... and from our own city staff." She added that she was frustrated it had come to this. "I'm not happy with how we, as a city, could not have predicted that outcome," she said.

Seems there were a lot more issues than "standard capacity fire trucks can't get through".

Some of the redesign seems fine, but it is still unfortunate we had record snowfall, because that was the root cause of the issues. If we had a winter with average or below average snowfall, I'm skeptical the city would have redesigned anything. I live on a side street with a curb cut to my parking pad (no alley or garage), and yeah, it was a giant pain trying to park this winter. And because people ignored winter parking restrictions, there were times school buses and garbage trucks couldn't through my street, leading to stand offs (who will back up and make room first?), and lots of honking But is my fairly typical side street going to get redesigned to make sure there are no kinks when we get record snowfall? I doubt it.

[amiller92]

Seems there were a lot more issues than "standard capacity fire trucks can't get through".

The "issues" could largely be solved by eliminating a few on-street parking spaces.

[xandrex]

It does seem like Bryant having driver-side parking was an own-goal on the city's part - a lot of folks aren't very good at parallel parking on the left side of the street. I got quite good at it when I lived on Grand in Whittier, but even then it could be a pain when it was winter because inevitably you have to park away from curb, shimmy out, or tromp through the snow that piles up on the boulevard.

[MNdible]

Seriously, the city has been designing recent projects without any acknowledgement that it snows here, and the only reason they haven't gotten burned on it until now is that most of the substandard lanes they've built so far can cheat into painted bike lane separation zones when the snowbanks build up.

[icelake]

I question that the recently designed lanes are “substandard”. Part of the problem is that our public works department is unable to plow from curb to curb. The drive lanes get narrower with every snowfall. We should not have to design streets around poor plowing.


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[MNdible]

If only we had, like, decades of experience to know that plowing curb to curb is actually quite difficult, and becomes impossible once snowbanks reach a certain height such that plowed snow falls back into the street. And if only somebody could have predicted that introducing all sorts of physical impediments to efficient plowing might, in fact, make plowing snow more difficult.

[icelake]

I feel the plowing has gotten worse, possibly we’re not ticketing and towing as consistently. Outside of my office I watched the road narrow over the winter as plows had to work around cars that didn’t move for snow emergencies. Maybe declare more snow emergencies and then clear the streets so that they can be plowed from curb to curb. What we did this winter didn’t work.


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[Hero]

Maybe Minneapolis should buy a fleet of used Japanese fire trucks.

https://flipboard.com/topic/japan/meet- ... torama.com

Half joking but fire trucks don't need to be as large as what Minneapolis currently uses.

If people are having trouble parking on the left side of the street why not swap the parking and driving lanes on Bryant?

[xandrex]

Would it be that easy to just swap parking? I assume with the chicanes it might not be -- though I have only biked on that stretch of Bryant once since it was finished and haven't driven it.

I really don't think Bryant is the only street with this issue. I really like a lot of aspects of the redo of Grand, but it was far too narrow this winter. That would be fine if it was just a residential street, but it's intended to be a minor arterial South Minneapolis. The stretch from Lake to 31st was a nightmare - cars never moved during snow emergencies and then parked away from the curb. It effectively became a single car wide in that stretch. And further south wasn't much better. They ended up closing down the street block by block to bring in pickups with plows on the front just to clear it out better. That's just not sustainable.

[dstolp]

I live two blocks off Bryant. The whole time the construction was in progress none of us could figure out what the hell they were doing. Only after it progressed did we realize the bike lanes were ginormous, almost as big as the street. It's absurd. You've got a one-way narrow lane meandering down through snowbanks, and then you have an equally large, two way bike path, which, in contrast to the street, seems to be well-plowed, and which has approximately zero riders between November thru March. I'm all for bike accommodations but this bike lane is twice what it needs to be. The could cut it in half, add the excess back to the street, and fix the access issue.

[fehler]

Driver side parking? Stepping out of your car into a wall of snow? Yeah, that's not going to encourage people to park all the way up to the curb.

[Tyler]

The only way this street works well in a *bad* winter is with priority snow removal.

[phop]

3rd snowiest winter in recorded history is also not going to happen very often. In my opinion, it makes perfect sense to have emergency plowing/parking plans for such a winter rather than design the street for a rare occurrence. That said, I also think the new public works modifications are a fair compromise.

[minntransplant]

I feel the plowing has gotten worse, possibly we’re not ticketing and towing as consistently. Outside of my office I watched the road narrow over the winter as plows had to work around cars that didn’t move for snow emergencies. Maybe declare more snow emergencies and then clear the streets so that they can be plowed from curb to curb. What we did this winter didn’t work.


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We are overdue for a complete rethinking of our approach to plowing and snow removal. We could learn a lot from Montreal. They do spend a lot more than we do, but it seems worth it.

[schwinnletour]

Would it be that easy to just swap parking? I assume with the chicanes it might not be -- though I have only biked on that stretch of Bryant once since it was finished and haven't driven it.

I really don't think Bryant is the only street with this issue. I really like a lot of aspects of the redo of Grand, but it was far too narrow this winter. That would be fine if it was just a residential street, but it's intended to be a minor arterial South Minneapolis. The stretch from Lake to 31st was a nightmare - cars never moved during snow emergencies and then parked away from the curb. It effectively became a single car wide in that stretch. And further south wasn't much better. They ended up closing down the street block by block to bring in pickups with plows on the front just to clear it out better. That's just not sustainable.

It seems like they could just change the direction that cars travel so people wouldn't be parking so the driver wouldn't be opening their car door into the snow bank area? The car travel direction seemed like it was an arbitrary decision by PW. All that would be required is moving some signage around?

[Tom H.]

Honestly can't believe nobody has invoked the word "chicanery" and the related internet copypasta, given the presence of chicanes here - or maybe I'm just too online...

[COLSLAW5]

they decided on those directions to funnel people to 46th to get on 35w so I don't think they would switch them around

[amiller92]

I live two blocks off Bryant. The whole time the construction was in progress none of us could figure out what the hell they were doing. Only after it progressed did we realize the bike lanes were ginormous, almost as big as the street. It's absurd. You've got a one-way narrow lane meandering down through snowbanks, and then you have an equally large, two way bike path, which, in contrast to the street, seems to be well-plowed, and which has approximately zero riders between November thru March. I'm all for bike accommodations but this bike lane is twice what it needs to be. The could cut it in half, add the excess back to the street, and fix the access issue.

The problem is parked cars. Let's fix it by...