Gold Line BRT - Woodbury to St. Paul (3/22/2025) and Minneapolis (2027)

[Korh]

Found this scrolling online
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q-UHd9tFNk

Interesting little takeaways I didn't consider before is one of the reasons LRT is much more expensive is that there's not many construction firms who specialize in building out LRT where for better or worse I'm sure there's serval dozen companies in the state alone who have been fine tunning road construction for decades, as well as mechanics to service each vehicle since auto mechanics can be a dime a dozen compared to ones trained to service a train.

[COLSLAW5]

Interesting little takeaways I didn't consider before is one of the reasons LRT is much more expensive is that there's not many construction firms who specialize in building out LRT where for better or worse I'm sure there's serval dozen companies in the state alone who have been fine tunning road construction for decades, as well as mechanics to service each vehicle since auto mechanics can be a dime a dozen compared to ones trained to service a train.

Not to be to critical but diesel engine mechanics are not a dime a dozen even comparing it to train mechanics. A lot of companies are struggling to hire and retain them.

A lot of the time the train mechanics are diesel engine mechanics that get on the job training to switch over.

[Korh]

Interesting little takeaways I didn't consider before is one of the reasons LRT is much more expensive is that there's not many construction firms who specialize in building out LRT where for better or worse I'm sure there's serval dozen companies in the state alone who have been fine tunning road construction for decades, as well as mechanics to service each vehicle since auto mechanics can be a dime a dozen compared to ones trained to service a train.

Not to be to critical but diesel engine mechanics are not a dime a dozen even comparing it to train mechanics. A lot of companies are struggling to hire and retain them.

A lot of the time the train mechanics are diesel engine mechanics that get on the job training to switch over.

Alright my mistake, I was thinking more of all the additional components outside of engines that regularly need to be checked and maintained, especially with the s70s and s 700s, which I wouldn't be surprised if they have to contract out directly to siemens occasionally.

[angrysuburbanite]

That video did a pretty good job describing the differences between the "types" of BRT, but hung onto the cost thing a bit more than I would have liked.

Also, the people he were interviewing (assuming Metro Transit reps) said some pretty refreshing things, especially the network vs corridor approach and satisfying community needs rather than mode requirements. Glad there are people thinking like that at Metro Transit!

[BigIdeasGuy]

There is certainly a huge difference in the quality of diesel mechanics and when you find a good one you treat them very well and do everything you can to keep them. It is also true that there are a lot more mechanics out there with experience working on diesel engines than there are mechanics out there with experience working with electric trains (at least in the US). Both absolutely can be true at the same time

[Korh]

That video did a pretty good job describing the differences between the "types" of BRT, but hung onto the cost thing a bit more than I would have liked.

Also, the people he were interviewing (assuming Metro Transit reps) said some pretty refreshing things, especially the network vs corridor approach and satisfying community needs rather than mode requirements. Glad there are people thinking like that at Metro Transit!

Just checked linkedin, O'Donnell Burrows looks like he's worked at metro transit for 12 years and is the current Planning Manager of the aBRT routes (A, C, D etc.) Ahn seems to have joined 2 years ago and looks like he's the Operations Management (planning and design stage to revenue service) for all future BRT routes

[kellonathan]

Yup, you found me! We filmed it last September or so and I totally forgot about the fact that we did this.

[Korh]

Well TIL there are important Metro Transit staff members who are members of the forum.

[twincitizen]

While I completely understand that any service west of Downtown St. Paul is "not part of the project", and there are likely cost-sharing agreements in place between Ramsey and Washington Counties to pay the operating expenses...

Is there any concern at Metro Transit / Met Council that opening the Gold Line only between Woodbury and St. Paul is setting it up for failure? In the post-pandemic era, this just seems doomed to open with terribly disappointing ridership numbers (see Orange Line). Why not have the Gold Line absorb the 94 bus route and extend that stronger branded service to downtown Minneapolis from day one? Who honestly cares that it wouldn't (initially) run in dedicated lanes west of downtown St. Paul? It seems far more important to me that this project do everything possible to avoid giving another black eye to public transit projects. Extend it to Minneapolis or don't open it at all until that's an option.

[Tcmetro]

While I see the point about extending to Minneapolis, I don't think the project is doomed by ending in St. Paul.

Maplewood to St. Paul is already an established transit corridor, and Woodbury to St. Paul has direct rush hour service to satisfy the needs of office workers who would be the largest group of ridership at that distance.

[Nick]

This was always an extremely marginal, politically-motivated project, before any of the other stuff happened, and the poor performance of the Orange Line is not a great sign.

[thespeedmccool]

I think it's worth pointing out, though, that operations and ridership are rarely what anti-transit people care about. They get exceedingly angry at the planning, engagement, design, and construction processes, but mostly go away when the service is up and running. They don't care if the service is successful or not; they care to kill it before it even starts.

Not that the Gold Line shouldn't serve Minneapolis (it should!) but I doubt we'll hear much from the Gold Line's (mostly non-existent anyway) enemies if ridership expectations aren't met.

[DanPatchToget]

https://www.twincities.com/2024/04/18/s ... y-her-out/

I don’t have a subscription so I can’t see the whole article. Can anyone give a summary of it?

[Tcmetro]

The house in question is adjacent to the Etna St station and is the sole residence on the street. The city has offered $209,000 to purchase the property, and the owner and laywer are pursuing an additional $60,000 from the Met Council to cover a relocation to a comparable property. The Met Council is not interested in providing that money as the property itself is not necessary for the Gold Line project.

[thespeedmccool]

File this under "Articles slandering the Met Council for a perfectly reasonable decision."

[Tcmetro]

To be honest it's not an outlandish request in my opinion. Met Council placates wealthy homeowners in the West metro by adding a tunnel that costs millions of dollars but can't spare $60,000 when they put a station next to someone's house that's already surrounded by poor urban planning decisions. You'd think they would at least be interested in acquiring the property to assemble a TOD site.

[twincitizen]

Eh, I'd say the ball is in St. Paul's court to sweeten the pot. $209k is kinda weak? Her property probably isn't worth more than that, but in the current housing market she's not able to buy any equivalent housing for $209k. It's standard practice (required by law even) to pay relocation fees in any type of government taking (even though this isn't a taking). St. Paul should either offer her enough to buy an equivalent house or nothing at all. Leave Met Council out of it - they don't want her property, and don't owe her damages...dangerous precedent there.

What's happening in front of this lady's property is very similar to the areas getting a giant, bright-as-hell aBRT station plopped in their SFH front yard...and those homeowners got nothing. I'm getting OT, but surely Metro Transit could come up with a smaller, less costly version of this for low-density residential areas along aBRT lines...this is overkill. In the app era, stop with the physical ticket machines already https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0335555 ... &entry=ttu

[thespeedmccool]

If they had eminent domained her off the property, she would've gone crying to the Pioneer Press complaining about that too. Really though, they are doing her a favor. Once the Gold Line is completed, she'll be able to sell her lot for far more than 200k. There will be TOD to support this station (as the article points out!) and she will certainly get more from a developer than the Met Council would offer her.

For now, she'll have to look at a bus stop. Oh the horror.

[pannierpacker2]

If they had eminent domained her off the property, she would've gone crying to the Pioneer Press complaining about that too. Really though, they are doing her a favor. Once the Gold Line is completed, she'll be able to sell her lot for far more than 200k. There will be TOD to support this station (as the article points out!) and she will certainly get more from a developer than the Met Council would offer her.

For now, she'll have to look at a bus stop. Oh the horror.

Are we confident enough that TOD is desirable here given the current development market, specifically in St. Paul? We now are living in the rent control era. On top of that, St. Paul recently voted to mandate that all high density housing equip their parking lots to make them "EV ready" which requires running conduits and wiring under the pavement. I just feel like as a developer the costs are high and there is a lot of risk. Also, the house isn't worth much today. Redfin thought it was valued around $180k. To me, that indicates this is not valuable land today and that the only thing it's gaining is the BRT stop.

[thespeedmccool]

If they had eminent domained her off the property, she would've gone crying to the Pioneer Press complaining about that too. Really though, they are doing her a favor. Once the Gold Line is completed, she'll be able to sell her lot for far more than 200k. There will be TOD to support this station (as the article points out!) and she will certainly get more from a developer than the Met Council would offer her.

For now, she'll have to look at a bus stop. Oh the horror.

Are we confident enough that TOD is desirable here given the current development market, specifically in St. Paul? We now are living in the rent control era. On top of that, St. Paul recently voted to mandate that all high density housing equip their parking lots to make them "EV ready" which requires running conduits and wiring under the pavement. I just feel like as a developer the costs are high and there is a lot of risk. Also, the house isn't worth much today. Redfin thought it was valued around $180k. To me, that indicates this is not valuable land today and that the only thing it's gaining is the BRT stop.

Well, St. Paul rent control does have a new construction exemption (20 years, while developers asked for 30) so on some level, St. Paul doesn't disincentivize development too much, though I agree the rent control policy does limit development in general. As to the EV ready rule they just passed, developers actually said that measure doesn't really affect their bottom line at all. Some developers even supported it.

The main thing holding back development in St. Paul is the interest rate environment, with some rent control. The regulatory environment is actually navigable by comparison.