Northstar Commuter Rail

[grant1simons2]

In theory, I very much want the North Star Line to succeed, but remain frustrated that almost nothing is being done along its route to make communities less car-oriented. It's the same old sprawl development paired with highway expansions making driving the most convenient and logical choice for commuters along the route. Am I wrong that the growing communities with Northstar stations are home to big box retail/ commercial surrounded by acres of surface parking and single-family homes on large lots? Why are we trying to serve these low-density places with expensive rail transit anyways?!

Commuter rail is designed to be car centric. Unfortunately this is far from what it needs to be which is regional rail. (Cue the sighs wishing Minneapolis was planned like Europe)

It was until the 1940s!

[gopherfan]

It seems like MnDot is kind of sabotaging Northstar. We spent $330 Million on it to alleviate traffic, but MnDot keeps expanding the Highway 10 corridor to take away the transit advantage... $138.2 Million committed in past & current projects, $410 Million committed in planned projects, and $357 Million in likely future projects based on studies. If these all happen MnDot will have spent nearly $1 Billion ($905 Million) to expand highways along the Northstar corridor!

I'm probably missing some projects here too, like the Highway 10 six lane expansion between Foley & Hanson around 2010, just as an example.

Northstar $330 Million
$317 Million cost of the original project
$13.2 Million cost of Ramsey Station

Previous Projects to Date $46.1 Million
Armstrong Boulevard Interchange - Ramsey
$46.1 Million - 2015
https://www.hometownsource.com/abc_news ... e3102.html

Current Projects Underway $92.1 Million
Highway 10 Freeway Expansion Preparation project - Elk River
$12.1 Million - 2021
https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/projects/h10elkriver/

Highway 10 Freeway Expansion - Anoka Solution
$80 Million - 2023
https://clients.bolton-menk.com/hwy10/w ... 19_web.pdf

Planned Projects $410 Million
169 Redefine Freeway Conversion - Elk River
$158 Million - 2022-24
https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/elkriverfreeway/

Highway 10 Rum River Bridge - Anoka
$89.7 Million - 2022
https://edocs-public.dot.state.mn.us/ed ... d=12208614

Highway 10 Six Lane Expansion - Coon Rapids
$25 Million - 2022
https://www.anokacounty.us/DocumentCent ... on-CR-2020

Highway 10 Ramsey Gateway Project
$138 Million -
http://www.cityoframsey.com/DocumentCen ... ing?bidId=

Project Studies $357 Million
Highway 10 Freeway Conversion - Elk River
$194 Million
https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/hwy10er/

Highway 252 Freeway Conversion - Brooklyn Center
$163 Million - 2025
https://www.hometownsource.com/sun_post ... 9afdf.html

[widin007]

You can move the 252 freeway conversion to planned from project studies, the project is now in Metro District's CHIP for 2026. MnDOT is essentially hostile to rail transit advancement at best in state, the less that ride Northstar or any rail based transit is more $$$ for MnDOT. If the transit investment is not to support a larger highway capacity increase, it is just not considered at all. A sad state for a Department of "Transportation".

[DanPatchToget]

I believe their passenger rail department only has a few people on staff, and they haven't updated the State Rail Plan since 2015, so that's further evidence of MnDOT's priorities on roads and trying to pave their way out of problems. Also that Northstar Extension to St. Cloud Study has been collecting dust for over a year and counting.

[thespeedmccool]

Not gonna see any movement on this front until the DFL takes (large) majorities. GOP has absolutely no interest in rail whatsoever (Kurt Daudt introduced a bill to mothball Northstar just last year.) Both parties can essentially agree that roads are important economic drivers, but only the DFL even pretends to care about transit.

[mamundsen]

Those Hwy 10 and 169 improvements are probably catered to the cabin traffic.

[gopherfan]

Those Hwy 10 and 169 improvements are probably catered to the cabin traffic.

Zimmerman is a growing exurb with metro commuters living there. They will probably get a full interchange at County Rd 4 & 169 very soon, it's already trying to get bonding money.

[Mdcastle]

So the only way to make Northstar work is to sabotage things for motorists? If so it's fair to question it's merits.

As far as those projects.
https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/projects/h10elkriver/
Is about fixing badly deteriorated pavement, not "Freeway Expansion Preparation"

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/hwy10er/
Was a study that Elk River paid for that MnDOT seems to have no interest and no money in pursuing

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/elkriverfreeway/
Is not on the US 10 corridor, and will make it easier for motorists to get to Northstar park and ride stations.

[gopherfan]

So the only way to make Northstar work is to sabotage things for motorists? If so it's fair to question it's merits.

Maintaining existing highways doesn't sabotage motorists. Only neglecting them or reducing their capacity would do that.

[gopherfan]

As far as those projects.
https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/projects/h10elkriver/
Is about fixing badly deteriorated pavement, not "Freeway Expansion Preparation"

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/hwy10er/
Was a study that Elk River paid for that MnDOT seems to have no interest and no money in pursuing

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/elkriverfreeway/
Is not on the US 10 corridor, and will make it easier for motorists to get to Northstar park and ride stations.

OK, we can remove $12.1 Million from the total for Highway 10 Elk River repaving. Still $892.9 Million...

The Elk River freeway expansion was listed as a study - so yes, not yet funded. Still $698.9 if they don't do it someday or more likely the number will increase when they inevitably convert to a freeway since that seems to be the locally preferred alternative.

169 is a MAJOR feeder into Highway 10, so yes, expansion of this road into a freeway will only increase traffic on Highway 10...
Hopefully it will feed more traffic into Northstar P&R's!

[DanPatchToget]

So the only way to make Northstar work is to sabotage things for motorists? If so it's fair to question it's merits.

As far as those projects.
https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/projects/h10elkriver/
Is about fixing badly deteriorated pavement, not "Freeway Expansion Preparation"

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/hwy10er/
Was a study that Elk River paid for that MnDOT seems to have no interest and no money in pursuing

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d3/elkriverfreeway/
Is not on the US 10 corridor, and will make it easier for motorists to get to Northstar park and ride stations.

Motorists have already gotten plenty since the 50s. If they want to maintain the existing highways that's fine, but we don't need more road expansions and giant interchanges.

It's already easy to drive to a Northstar station. We should be focusing on how to make it easy for people to walk, bike, and take local transit to the stations. If your commuter rail line relies almost entirely on park & riders then you're doing it wrong.

[Korh]

Kind of cynical but I don't think expanding highway 10 will do much damage to the northstar in the long run since expanding highway capacity only relieves traffic congestion for a bit but ends up getting even worse then before (see Katy freeway).

So yeah its gonna suck that they'll be more cars on the road, but on the bright side the train will seem faster during rush hour in comparison.

[Trademark]

Kind of cynical but I don't think expanding highway 10 will do much damage to the northstar in the long run since expanding highway capacity only relieves traffic congestion for a bit but ends up getting even worse then before (see Katy freeway).

So yeah its gonna suck that they'll be more cars on the road, but on the bright side the train will seem faster during rush hour in comparison.

Induced demand is not this magic principle that always makes highways more congested then before. All it means is that with greater capacity comes greater usage. But it doesn't mean that the highway will automatically become full. There are plenty of examples In our metro area of highways that have expanded and yet are not that congested that have been around for awhile.

For example 94 between 694 and 55. 100 between 394 and 694 (most of the time). 35E between 94 and 694.

If you built highway 10 out to 8 lanes it would not be congested. But there would be more cars on it then there would be if it was 4 lanes and 6 lanes.

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[Oreos&Milk]

Now if they only opened those hwy 4-6 times a day during peak times and gave ya a 4min windows to start your trip before closing it down again then I think we’ll be playing fair.. until then we must endure an unfair game with the 24 hour freeway always being open like a all night grocery store..

[VacantLuxuries]

It would be neat if we tried inducing demand with better train service for once instead of starting with the 1950s logic of "Freeway capacity is necessary, transit capacity needs to prove need before we'll even consider being dragged along into supporting it."

[DanPatchToget]

One thing that needs to be acknowledged, and perhaps everyone here plus MnDOT already knows this, is transit probably won't relieve congestion just as widening a highway probably won't. However, transit on dedicated right-of-way, like Northstar, gives people the option to avoid the road congestion. Of course with the limited schedule even before the pandemic there were a limited amount of people who had the option of taking Northstar, and even if they had the option that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't just drive anyways.

With MnDOT it's a never-ending story of one more lane, one more interchange, one more improvement, and that will relieve congestion on a certain highway corridor. The problem is after the dust settles and construction is done they move on to another massive project that disrupts traffic with the promise that when it's done traffic congestion will be a thing of the past. Unlike their philosophy that in my opinion is outdated, they should invest in the alternatives to driving and make those alternatives as convenient as possible so more than just suburban commuters to downtown can benefit. I realize not all road funding can be transferred to a transit project, but with the amount of money they have and will spend trying to pave their way out of congestion on highways along the Northstar route, imagine how much better Northstar could be if they put that money towards Northstar. Also of course putting greater emphasis on developing around transit stations instead of the usual sprawled and auto-centric development near highways that makes the traffic congestion return.

[Trademark]

One thing that needs to be acknowledged, and perhaps everyone here plus MnDOT already knows this, is transit probably won't relieve congestion just as widening a highway probably won't. However, transit on dedicated right-of-way, like Northstar, gives people the option to avoid the road congestion. Of course with the limited schedule even before the pandemic there were a limited amount of people who had the option of taking Northstar, and even if they had the option that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't just drive anyways.

With MnDOT it's a never-ending story of one more lane, one more interchange, one more improvement, and that will relieve congestion on a certain highway corridor. The problem is after the dust settles and construction is done they move on to another massive project that disrupts traffic with the promise that when it's done traffic congestion will be a thing of the past. Unlike their philosophy that in my opinion is outdated, they should invest in the alternatives to driving and make those alternatives as convenient as possible so more than just suburban commuters to downtown can benefit. I realize not all road funding can be transferred to a transit project, but with the amount of money they have and will spend trying to pave their way out of congestion on highways along the Northstar route, imagine how much better Northstar could be if they put that money towards Northstar. Also of course putting greater emphasis on developing around transit stations instead of the usual sprawled and auto-centric development near highways that makes the traffic congestion return.

Road projects even expansions have their place but we need to approach something close to a 1 to 1 spending ratio between road and transit.

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[John21]

It would be awesome if even for 6 months they bumped the frequency of this line to see if it worked better. Probably not possible but one can dream.

[DanPatchToget]

It would be awesome if even for 6 months they bumped the frequency of this line to see if it worked better. Probably not possible but one can dream.

It would be possible if they bit the bullet and added a third main track between Minneapolis and at least Coon Creek Junction.

Northstar is definitely one of those cases where cheaper doesn't mean better. We got track infrastructure already built for commuter trains, but you're operating on the busiest freight rail corridor in Minnesota, so you'll get bogged down by freight traffic interference and little if any room to expand the schedule. I'm not sure if they ever planned for Northstar to go beyond the peak hour and peak direction only service, IIRC I read a document from years ago where they considered adding a late morning and late evening roundtrip, but nothing beyond that.

[VacantLuxuries]

One thing that needs to be acknowledged, and perhaps everyone here plus MnDOT already knows this, is transit probably won't relieve congestion just as widening a highway probably won't.

How would we know that? We've never tried to build transit as a means to induce demand in the same way we do with freeways.

Building more lanes has always failed.

If we find out that neither solution ever solves the problem they set out to, we can save a lot of money by not building anything and making better land use choices instead.