urbanMSP

I really have to say that whatever people think of Northstar, that should translate almost exactly to the way we think about commuter buses in the region, which have also seen a massive hit to ridership. Lots of those routes also have this bonkers service pattern of having nearly all trips going into downtown in the morning, laying over during the midday somewhere in the core cities, and returning out to the suburbs in the evening.

It's especially frustrating since I see the Northstar as having a generally better operation where it makes multiple stops through suburbs -- commuter buses tend to operate kind of like local service in a specific suburb, then run without any stops until they get close to or into downtown. I really wish highway-running buses had a few more intermediate stops here and there (especially at either end of some of the big river bridges we have in the region)

I really have to say that whatever people think of Northstar, that should translate almost exactly to the way we think about commuter buses in the region, which have also seen a massive hit to ridership.

Yes, and I suspect there's a strong overlap at the Capitol between those who want to axe Northstar and those who think nobody is ever going to work downtown again because of remote work.

Considering the amount of outrage over the subsidy per passenger of Northstar they should have a heart attack looking at the subsidy per rider of our low performing express bus routes.

Latest I've been able to find is 2016 data but here's express routes with a higher subsidy per rider than Northstar:
MVTA Route 492- $56.64 per rider
MVTA Route 494/495- $43.38 per rider
MVTA Route 491- $33.68 per rider
Plymouth Route 743- $31.64 per rider
Northstar- $20.12 per rider

Back when SW Transit tried a couple short-lived local routes in Eden Prairie (before SW Prime) I was told by a SW Transit employee who works in route planning that the subsidy per rider was around $100.

Considering the amount of outrage over the subsidy per passenger of Northstar they should have a heart attack looking at the subsidy per rider of our low performing express bus routes.

Latest I've been able to find is 2016 data but here's express routes with a higher subsidy per rider than Northstar:
MVTA Route 492- $56.64 per rider
MVTA Route 494/495- $43.38 per rider
MVTA Route 491- $33.68 per rider
Plymouth Route 743- $31.64 per rider
Northstar- $20.12 per rider

Back when SW Transit tried a couple short-lived local routes in Eden Prairie (before SW Prime) I was told by a SW Transit employee who works in route planning that the subsidy per rider was around $100.

When you say per rider is that per boarding? Like if someone takes the 492 every day for a year then MVTA is spending like $10,000 on that rider?

I believe so but I'm not 100% certain. The spreadsheet I pulled it from just says "per rider".

The difference between commuter buses and commuter rail is simple. Commuter rail is operated for ridership and it is failing. Commuter buses are operated for coverage so ridership is not as important.

Keep in mind that Northstar's high subsidy per rider is partly because people are traveling such long distances. Looks like the average ride was almost 25 miles in 2019, versus only about 4 miles for trips on Metro Transit's overall bus and light rail network (that's per individual hop, not counting cases where people transfer between routes, but Northstar riders are still probably going around twice as far as anyone else in the system)

Those express routes are all reverse commute lines and the buses would likely be running empty to do a second commute trip anyways.

I think the Northstar Extension to St Cloud would be very well used especially with students at SCSU. Even if commuter ridership is permanently gone, there's a good opportunity to convert it into an intercity line.

Those express routes are all reverse commute lines and the buses would likely be running empty to do a second commute trip anyways.

I think the Northstar Extension to St Cloud would be very well used especially with students at SCSU. Even if commuter ridership is permanently gone, there's a good opportunity to convert it into an intercity line.

Exactly if we can convert northstar into 2-3 round-trips to fargo I would take that over the status quo. Keep all the same stops. Timed connections with NLX would be clutch too.

Those express routes are all reverse commute lines and the buses would likely be running empty to do a second commute trip anyways.

I think the Northstar Extension to St Cloud would be very well used especially with students at SCSU. Even if commuter ridership is permanently gone, there's a good opportunity to convert it into an intercity line.

Route 494/495 was/is a suburb-to-suburb express route. And considering routes like the 467, which had a low subsidy per rider in the 2016 data, now have severely reduced service or are suspended altogether because of COVID, makes me interested in seeing what the subsidy data was in 2020 and what it will be this year.

Northstar commuter rail is a failed experiment
Northstar commuter rail has issues, but all are solvable

Strib this weekend.

Northstar commuter rail is a failed experiment
Northstar commuter rail has issues, but all are solvable

Strib this weekend.

Northstar is a failed experiment that is solvable, but those solutions are unlikely too happen in this political climate

Since those multi-million dollar stations will only be used by a couple daily roundtrip trains for who knows how long, it would be nice to find other uses for them (not really the platforms, mainly just the parking lots/ramps) like a community gathering space or farmers market.

Since those multi-million dollar stations will only be used by a couple daily roundtrip trains for who knows how long, it would be nice to find other uses for them (not really the platforms, mainly just the parking lots/ramps) like a community gathering space or farmers market.

That's a good idea. It would be cool if it was on a weekend and then running a special event train or two to get people from outside the immediate area to go there.

Too bad Dan Patch is in perpetual purgatory. If that was the first commuter rail chosen. I think we would have had northstar to St cloud, red rock, and maybe even a train to Stillwater built out by now.

Because there is no other local point of reference people think northstar failed just because it's commuter rail. When really it failed because of its destination, lack of frequency, unreliable travel times (especially at the start), and terrible land use at the stations.

I really don't know if we'll have another chance to show that commuter rail works which is terrible because there are plenty of markets that could support decent commuter rail just outside the metro area that never even made it to the planning phase (like rogers, buffalo, forest lake). And now most likely never will.

This is why we need to hold our leaders accountable and not just support a project just because it is a transit project. We got lucky that the orange line was so far along because we easily could have had the same fate with the failure of the red line. Also as much as we hate on the blue line for being surface level downtown. We are so blessed that it was as successful as it is. Or it wasn't just a streetcar like Milwaukee. Plenty of other cities first light rails didn't perform well. And it destroys the potential for future projects.

This video could almost be a summary of Northstar. It's also a good summary of why LEED ratings don't mean that much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxWjtpz ... tJustBikes

If Northstar trains were used to build northern lights express I would completely support it. Given the limits to expand services beyond 3-4 trains a day I’d say it’s time to find a “healthy divorce” option.

Expanding service to St. Cloud sounds nice but hourly service during the day is unrealistic given limits on capacity from the railway owners. Plus deprioritization… such a shame but the toy needs to be repurposed. Unless we wanna keep playing in hopes that we can somehow increase capacity of trains and rides.. seems like a challenge that isn’t worth that much effort but since it’s our only toy train line I completely understand… for now at least

This corridor just keeps growing. I have family who live along the 94 / Northstar line and they say that their commute gets worse each month. The population in this area is only going to continue to grow. I hope they can find a way to fix/resolve the issues.

In theory, I very much want the North Star Line to succeed, but remain frustrated that almost nothing is being done along its route to make communities less car-oriented. It's the same old sprawl development paired with highway expansions making driving the most convenient and logical choice for commuters along the route. Am I wrong that the growing communities with Northstar stations are home to big box retail/ commercial surrounded by acres of surface parking and single-family homes on large lots? Why are we trying to serve these low-density places with expensive rail transit anyways?!

In theory, I very much want the North Star Line to succeed, but remain frustrated that almost nothing is being done along its route to make communities less car-oriented. It's the same old sprawl development paired with highway expansions making driving the most convenient and logical choice for commuters along the route. Am I wrong that the growing communities with Northstar stations are home to big box retail/ commercial surrounded by acres of surface parking and single-family homes on large lots? Why are we trying to serve these low-density places with expensive rail transit anyways?!

Commuter rail is designed to be car centric. Unfortunately this is far from what it needs to be which is regional rail. (Cue the sighs wishing Minneapolis was planned like Europe)

In theory, I very much want the North Star Line to succeed, but remain frustrated that almost nothing is being done along its route to make communities less car-oriented. It's the same old sprawl development paired with highway expansions making driving the most convenient and logical choice for commuters along the route. Am I wrong that the growing communities with Northstar stations are home to big box retail/ commercial surrounded by acres of surface parking and single-family homes on large lots? Why are we trying to serve these low-density places with expensive rail transit anyways?!

There's bits of TOD at the Northstar stations, but yes the areas remain dominated by auto-centric development and infrastructure. Maybe when NLX to Duluth is finally built that'll give Metro Transit, the Met Council, and communities along the route a push to make Northstar better (mainly a better schedule and an extension to St. Cloud). Unfortunately for now I feel like there's no willingness to change Northstar. The only short-term change I can see happening is restoring another peak-hour peak-direction trip, but that depends heavily on getting people back on the train, which will be difficult because of the pandemic and shift in commute patterns. Northstar has been dealt bad hand after bad hand since its beginning.