Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[BikesOnFilm]

For every loud person who publicly declares they're never going back to Minneapolis for whatever they're upset about this week, there are a dozen who don't think about the politics of city borders when deciding if they want to go to the restaurant they like in Uptown or the one they like at Southdale tonight.

Some of them might take the train now. Some of them might not. Given the success of the E Line, I'm inclined to think suburbanites are more open to transit than the average anti-Minneapolis commenter on the Star Tribune website would believe.

[Mdcastle]

They're probably not thinking about "the politics of city borders" so much as there's a freeway exit right next to Southdale so it's easy to drive to and park right in front of for free without having a difficult drive, paying for parking, or having to ride transit.

[BikesOnFilm]

They're not thinking about the freeway exits either. My point was the people on this forum are thinking about things in a completely different way than the average human being deciding between two restaurants.

Yes, if those restaurants each exist in an urban and suburban location, someone might default to the more convenient choice for them. If the restaurant only exists in Minneapolis, the idea that someone who wants to go there will say "Hold on, I really want to eat at Owamni tonight, but there isn't a freeway exit nearby, so I guess I'll get Culver's instead" is patently ridiculous.

None of us should view ourselves as the 'average' person, honestly. Those of us who are passionate about transit are the outlier transit user, you as a highway fanatic are an outlier suburbanite. Most people don't think about this stuff that much and it's worth reminding ourselves of that when we make the mistake of using the phrase "Most people think..." to steelman a sentence that really should start with "I think..."

[Mdcastle]

How many people in the suburbs really think specifically "I want to eat at Owammi tonight."

It's "I want eat somewhere tonight. Owammi I'd have to take the train or pay to park but Culver's has free parking and is by a freeway exit, so I'll go to Culver's instead to eat".

[angrysuburbanite]

This is a really pedantic disagreement here. I think the primary motivations for people when they go out to eat generally revolve around the desired type/quality of food first, and transportation second. I realize I am a transit nerd but I have never once chosen to go to a fast food place nearby over a higher-end restaurant further away simply because it isn't next to a freeway exit (it's almost always due to other factors). Most people I know (regular people) don't even figure out parking or driving stuff until they are on their way to a restaurant, which is why you hear people complain about parking and traffic so much. The actual restaurant itself is the primary motivation; transportation to it is usually determined based on whatever is most convenient.

For most people right now, the most convenient option is almost always driving. Southwest Light Rail--and by extension current and future LRT and BRT investments--offer an attractive alternative to that for the first time in generations for a lot of people. Whether or not these people will actually utilize this option is what I was pondering earlier. I suspect some will--people like myself, students, seniors, and the people who moved into the TOD around the stations--but many still won't unless there are outside factors actively making driving less attractive.

And yes, there are plenty of really cool spots in the suburbs too if you want something fancier or more unique for a dinner. I'm not denying that. At the risk of this example's details being picked apart rather than seeing the forest for the trees: I could see someone living at an apartment near Southwest Station opting to take the train to meet up with family or friends at a restaurant in downtown Hopkins rather than driving. Not many people will do this, but the fact that it will be an option for people to choose if they want is really meaningful.

I don't get why I have to explain why people go out to eat as a concept, but whatever. If someone wants to go to [insert restaurant here], they will probably go to it, no matter its proximity to a freeway, the ability to park your car easily, or convenient access to a bus or train route. I highly doubt for most people that transportation is *the* limiting factor for where they go. Expanding the METRO system merely provides additional options to carry out the "travel" part of the trip planning process.

[mattaudio]

IDK, Owami vs Culvers is a compelling flip of the coin.

Green Line will have a fairly transit-accessible Culvers across the Hwy 5 interchange from SouthWest Station, and already has one at University/Snelling. And Sun-Ray has a Culvers at the footsteps of the Gold Line station, and the future is bright for the K Line ending at the Nicollet/American Blvd Culvers.

I put Clanker to work using precious electricity and water on the hunt for some tag lines to make the idea of transit-oriented Culvers more... concrete...

"Building a ButterBRT."
"Dedicated right-of-way, dedicated custard-of-the-day."
"Signal priority? We call that ButterBurger priority."
"The ButterBurger Line: Delays are melted away."
Curd Rapid Transit (CRT)
"No mixed traffic. Just mixed cheese."
"Transit so smooth it's basically frozen custard."
"The Custard Connector."

[twincitizen]

1. I'm suddenly tempted to pick up Culvers on the way home today.

2. Metro Transit posted a new drone video of the line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsMQouYWFls

[BikesOnFilm]

"Signal priority? We call that ButterBurger priority."

Look if we can translate this into better signal priority in St. Paul then I'll take it.

[Nick]

That's a lot of new apartments in the first part. Hopefully some of the residents take the train!

[DanPatchToget]

Curious if there will be a full-service testing (3-car trains every 15 minutes in each direction) before revenue service begins. Are there enough trains and drivers to do that? Also would it be Green Line trains going out-of-service at Target Field and then proceeding west, or separate trains doing the testing?

[Korh]

Kind of feel left out since if I'm being honest, I'd rather get a burger from Freddie's (might even choose a burger from kwiktrip on a pure "not break my wallet" value option)
Getting off food for a sec, has anyone made a prediction on which will be the most used to least used station on the extension?
Don't have a full list, but my gut still thinks W 21st, Bryn Mawr, and Bassett Creek will be the 3 least used and for most used, maybe Southwest, City West and Opus.

[Wezle]

It's gotta be Bassett Creek for the least used. Sandwiched between 394 and the impound lot. Bryn Mawr doesn't have much, but at least it has the park and some people living near by.

I'd guess Opus or West Lake for most used. But I think there are a lot of potential higher ridership stations as TOD continues to get built out around them such as Beltline and Downtown Hopkins.

[daveybabymsp]

It's gotta be Bassett Creek for the least used. Sandwiched between 394 and the impound lot. Bryn Mawr doesn't have much, but at least it has the park and some people living near by.

I'd guess Opus or West Lake for most used. But I think there are a lot of potential higher ridership stations as TOD continues to get built out around them such as Beltline and Downtown Hopkins.

Bassett creek is interesting because the 5 minute walk shed is a complete dead zone, but if you walk 10 min you can get to the sculpture garden, Dunwoody, and the developments on Glenwood. It will definitely be an underperforming station but I would place my bet for lowest ridership on Golden Triangle or Shady Oak

[BikesOnFilm]

I think the W 21st station will surprise people. Having a station that connects you right to the Chain of Lakes system of parks and trails will have benefits.

I think Town Center Station in Eden Prairie will be a disappointment unless there is some significant push to replace the auto oriented retail with TOD. Southwest Station can get park-and-ride ridership from points to the west and south, but Town Center isn't going to be so lucky. A good place to start would be the bowling alley, it seems to change owners every five years so it doesn't appear to be particularly successful.

Even without the finished 325 Blake Road development, there is a lot of housing near the Blake station already, and I expect that'll help that station punch above expectations. Additionally, some riders currently taking the 17 eastward to downtown might start taking it westward to transfer to LRT instead.

[DanPatchToget]

I imagine there's going to be quite a seasonal difference in ridership for West 21st with it trending upwards in May, hitting peak around July or August, and then dropping off around September or October. Also unlike most stations its busiest days will be the weekends.

[daveybabymsp]

Ridership also depends massively on if the 2 gets extended to terminate at 21st street station. A no brainer move except it may receive pushback from Kenwood residents. Can’t recall ever seeing a route 2 extension in network now/any plans, does anyone know if that is being considered?

[DanPatchToget]

I'm pretty sure I saw it in a pre-pandemic bus improvement plan. Obviously times have changed, but it still seems like a no-brainer and I would hope NIMBYism wouldn't prevent it from happening.

[angrysuburbanite]

There isn't a good place for operator layovers at 21st Street for bus drivers so I'd imagine that isn't being considered. Outside of West Lake and Blake stations the planned bus connections as per Network Now are underwhelming. They missed several really obvious connection points, like the 705 being extended to Louisiana Station, Route 46 running to Opus all the time, Route 9 completely skipping Bryn Mawr Station, a route to Excelsior, etc. And then none of the Eden Prairie stations will have anything.

West Lake will probably be the highest ridership station, least used is a toss up between Bryn Mawr, City West, or Golden Triangle. 21st Street has park access and Bassett Creek Valley has some points of interest nearby that will drive some level of seasonal ridership. The two weakest stations along the main section, Shady Oak and Louisiana, benefit from being basically the only park and rides for residents in that area. The bright side is that most of the worst stations are bad simply due to undeveloped land nearby, and that can still change in the future.

[twincitizen]

Considering the 25 (L branch) directly serves 21st St Station today, I would look towards increased service on that route rather than extending the 2. There's currently only one trip per day in each direction, so that would have to be scaled up to match demand. Extending the 2 is one of those transit ideas that would look good as a line on the map, but doesn't actually produce as much ridership as one might think. There would be a massive mismatch in ridership demand between the existing 2 and the hypothetical extension west of Hennepin, and as noted above there's no place for operator layover.

It's probably better to think of 21st Street as primarily being a walk-up station serving the immediate neighborhood and park/trail visitors. Bus connections (aside from maybe hourly service on the 25) would be better routed to the adjacent stations on the line.

I hope they find a way to bring the 9 closer Bryn Mawr Station. The lack of a frontage road (north side of 394, Penn to Thomas) prevents the best possible routing that wouldn't deviate too much from the route's current walkshed. Running the 9 all the way down Penn to the station's drop off loop then doubling back north to Cedar Lake Rd (in both route directions) is not ideal, especially after Metro Transit recently straightened and streamlined the 9, but I don't see any other options in the short term. Leaving the 9's routing as-is and forcing a .4 mile walk for transfers is the worse option of the two IMO, but that seems to be the way Metro Transit is leaning. I guess they have a year to change their minds. I would think in this instance that at least as many riders would benefit from the connection as those that would be annoyed by the 5-minute detour to the station.

For Bassett Creek Valley Station (fka Van White), it really seems like there should be a new circulator route connecting Near North to Loring Park via Van White / Dunwoody. The problem with a direct connection to the station is the platform lies below the middle of the bridge, which wasn't built with any provisions for a bus stop. You can see the station's vertical circulation on streetview here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/D83JMHdhHmQFsbFf7 There's no way to fix that short of building a new bridge, so the bus stops would have to be placed at the southern end of the bridge. Fortunately that walking distance would be very reasonable, about .1 to .15 mile.

I know I just poo-poo'd the idea of extending the 2 to 21st St Station, but for Van White I wonder if Route 61 could be extended a few blocks to Dunwoody & 394? The 61 currently ends/begins at like Hennepin & 8th(?). It appears the roads around Dunwoody & the 394 ramps would allow for buses to make a connecting stop and turn around, negating the need to actually send buses over the bridge. Now that I mention it, that seems like a great bus connection to make, linking MCTC and that whole 'western Hennepin' corner of downtown with the Bassett Creek Valley Station. That would certainly help that station avoid having zero ridership.

[daveybabymsp]

A 2 extension to 21st station would be 1 mile long, with stops at the Kenwood business district and lake of the isles. I think being anchored by a light rail station would generate solid demand for that mile. Layover would need to be figured out but doesn’t seem like a reason we could never do it