Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[quagga]

The ABRT concept studied for Franklin/Grand/E 3rd terminated at Franklin/Hennepin on the west end.

[twincitizen]

A 2 extension to 21st station would be 1 mile long, with stops at the Kenwood business district and lake of the isles. I think being anchored by a light rail station would generate solid demand for that mile. Layover would need to be figured out but doesn’t seem like a reason we could never do it

The main flaw with that idea is still the massive mismatch in service demand. The 2 needs a bus every 10 minutes, all day, 7 days a week. The hypothetical routing west of Hennepin Ave will never need anything close to that frequency or span of service. It would be an enormous waste of resources to send every single 2 rambling through Kenwood. By necessity it would have to be a branch of the 2 with like half the frequency or less. It just doesn't make sense operationally.

If you're determined to extend the 2 to connect with SWLRT, operationally it could make just as much sense to send the 2 up Hennepin to Dunwoody to hit BCV Station instead of 21st.

[angrysuburbanite]

For Bassett Creek Valley Station (fka Van White), it really seems like there should be a new circulator route connecting Near North to Loring Park via Van White / Dunwoody. The problem with a direct connection to the station is the platform lies below the middle of the bridge, which wasn't built with any provisions for a bus stop. You can see the station's vertical circulation on streetview here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/D83JMHdhHmQFsbFf7 There's no way to fix that short of building a new bridge, so the bus stops would have to be placed at the southern end of the bridge. Fortunately that walking distance would be very reasonable, about .1 to .15 mile.

New Route 8 was supposed to do this according to network now. That would split a branch of the 14 off into its own route. The initial proposed routing with Route 14 Better Bus Route (as route 48 instead) was via Glenwood but I'm pretty sure it will be re-routed through Bassett Creek Valley once SWLRT opens. It's only hourly but better than nothing.

For route 9 I was thinking it would be better to continue straight down Penn Avenue rather than turning at Laurel Ave like it does now and then take the southern frontage road along I-394. This would be at the expense of some coverage in Bryn Mawr itself but most of it would still be in the walkshed to the bus stops that remain.

I also think that closing Louisiana Avenue Transit Station is worth considering. Route 9's hourly branch there is going to be rerouted to go south at Cedar Lake Road and terminate at the SWLRT station, leaving route 705 not really connecting with anything. There is the 645 but that isn't a local route; if the 705 went straight down Louisiana Avenue to the light rail station it would remove the weird gap created by the current plan, something I commented on in the first round of Network Now engagement. I'd imagine the few people still using the park and ride for the 645 will probably switch to the light rail because it is a lot faster, too.

[Hamstirly]

For Bassett Creek Valley Station (fka Van White), it really seems like there should be a new circulator route connecting Near North to Loring Park via Van White / Dunwoody. The problem with a direct connection to the station is the platform lies below the middle of the bridge, which wasn't built with any provisions for a bus stop. You can see the station's vertical circulation on streetview here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/D83JMHdhHmQFsbFf7 There's no way to fix that short of building a new bridge, so the bus stops would have to be placed at the southern end of the bridge. Fortunately that walking distance would be very reasonable, about .1 to .15 mile.

I know I just poo-poo'd the idea of extending the 2 to 21st St Station, but for Van White I wonder if Route 61 could be extended a few blocks to Dunwoody & 394? The 61 currently ends/begins at like Hennepin & 8th(?). It appears the roads around Dunwoody & the 394 ramps would allow for buses to make a connecting stop and turn around, negating the need to actually send buses over the bridge. Now that I mention it, that seems like a great bus connection to make, linking MCTC and that whole 'western Hennepin' corner of downtown with the Bassett Creek Valley Station. That would certainly help that station avoid having zero ridership.

The bassett creek valley station has a bus stop loop under the bridge that is intended for dropoffs. That would be annoying for a through running bus to near north, but would be a great layover spot for the end of an extended 61.

Reconstructing the van whitebridge isn't that insane of an idea either though. The road was set up for two spans on the bridge and just pinches down to one because they didn't bother to build the second one right away. Maybe when there's a little more TOD around here (one can hope) there'll be more traffic and the city will want to redo the connection.

For me I think the least used stops will be EP Town Center, City West and either Bryn Mawr or Bassett Creek. I agree W 21st is buoyed by the lake. Town Center station is named like they wanted it to be the stop for the mall, but it's an insane walk across massive stroads to even get to the sea of parking lots. I mean you can't even get to the bowling alley across from the station because they put up a huge fence. It seems like the most pointless station in the alignment. City West has a similarly long walk through marshes to get to the optum complex which already has massive parking garages.

[Tiller]

A 2 extension to 21st station would be 1 mile long, with stops at the Kenwood business district and lake of the isles. I think being anchored by a light rail station would generate solid demand for that mile. Layover would need to be figured out but doesn’t seem like a reason we could never do it

The main flaw with that idea is still the massive mismatch in service demand. The 2 needs a bus every 10 minutes, all day, 7 days a week. The hypothetical routing west of Hennepin Ave will never need anything close to that frequency or span of service. It would be an enormous waste of resources to send every single 2 rambling through Kenwood. By necessity it would have to be a branch of the 2 with like half the frequency or less. It just doesn't make sense operationally.

If you're determined to extend the 2 to connect with SWLRT, operationally it could make just as much sense to send the 2 up Hennepin to Dunwoody to hit BCV Station instead of 21st.

Going up Hennepin to Basset Creek Valley Station is pretty different geometrically compared to continuing west to 21st though. The goal isn't just to connect to the Green Line, otherwise why not transfer at west bank station? Its about the network - and the types of trips that connections between SWLRT and the 2 Bus would facilitate would be between the southwest suburbs and the service area of the 2 Bus. Going up Hennepin would essentially be backtracking, and it would also be duplicative of the E Line.

Kenwood should be upzoned anyways (they barely dodged that bullet with the last comprehensive plan), and having high frequency transit connecting the area would facilitate that medium-term in addition to providing useful connections for the overall network and for Kenwood specifically.

[Icn]

A couple of notes as a daily Route 9 rider: 1) connecting the 9 to Bryn Mawr Station is a great idea except for the fact that the new housing on the north side of 394 and east of Wirth Park is a significant trip generator for the 9; 2) creating bus connections from BCV Station, such as to the 61 and the 2, would be a significant boost to transit access for the Harrison neighborhood. Ideally one of the BCV Station bus routes would connect to South/Southwest Minneapolis too, where there is currently no way to go south/southwest without transferring downtown. The 2 would help, but just to Franklin. Just imagine the ridership of a BRT route on Lyndale from north to south (especially if it could also connect to the Green Line), but there is no such routing planned, is there?

[mattaudio]

Seems like it could almost be better to extend the 2 south on Hennepin then west on Lake to the Green Line. Still would provide connectivity to the Green Line on the west end, but would also probably serve one seat rides that are more in demand (e.g. Uptown to West Bank) and increase frequency on other segments (e.g. Green Line to Uptown or Wedge).

[DanPatchToget]

^Wouldn't quite make up for the Green Line not being in Uptown, but that would certainly help.

[Uptown46]

21st Station and bus connectctions in the news today! https://www.startribune.com/green-line- ... /601867899

[COLSLAW5]

so basically no Metro Transit has no plans to extend any bus service to 21st station. Because they don't have restrooms or area for operators to take a break and not enough layover parking.

I thought there was a specific bump out on Thomas ave S for buses to layover at even from before this project. I always thought it was a weird spot for it.

[Wezle]

Even the Star Tribune commenters are wondering why we didn't build the train through Uptown; I hate to agree with them, but they're right. I imagine in an alternate universe where we did do that, they'd wonder why we didn't build in in the Kenilworth corridor.

Hopefully the 2050 plan includes some upzoning around the 21st St station.

[daveybabymsp]

How do you build a train station in the woods and design it in a way that makes it impossible for there to be a bus connection

[Bakken2016]

Even the Star Tribune commenters are wondering why we didn't build the train through Uptown; I hate to agree with them, but they're right. I imagine in an alternate universe where we did do that, they'd wonder why we didn't build in in the Kenilworth corridor.

Hopefully the 2050 plan includes some upzoning around the 21st St station.

I wouldn't hold your breath. With Katie Cashman being defeated by Elizabeth Shaffer. I assume Shaffer will be just like Goodman in opposing up zoning there.

I rallied around a route 2 extension during the Network Now planning, and was beyond disappointed that we aren't doing anything to provide some connection to that station.

[DanPatchToget]

Is there any space around for a layover facility for bus drivers, and how much would it cost to build? Seems very wasteful to not have some kind of bus service connection, anything from a Route 2 extension to a short local route with cutaway buses. It wouldn't give 21st Street a huge boost in ridership, but for now it seems it will only be useful for beachgoers, trail users, and a small number of nearby residents choosing to take the train instead of driving.

[Mdcastle]

If the train went through Uptown there'd be StarTribune commentors saying no one from the suburbs is going to ride it to their jobs downtown because of the long, slow detour through Uptown instead of a fast direct route. Or to the university because of the transfer.

[Korh]

Remind me on two things:
Did the original uptown routing plan to use the midtown greenway trench?
And if so when did the trench get converted from a rail spur to the trail we have today?

I ask because while there is an overlap between transit advocates/users and bicycle advocates/users, their not perfectly aligned at times. And depending how long people could of gotten accustomed to greenway, how much of the greenery in the greenway would of gotten removed, or how cramped it could of gotten at some spots, I think there could of been a big ugly fight between the two groups. Which is also way I don't think the greenway streetcar will go anywhere unless its less of an actual transit system, more like what the MN streetcar museum does with the Como-Harriet and Excelsior Streetcar Lines.

[mattaudio]

Did the original uptown routing plan to use the midtown greenway trench?
And if so when did the trench get converted from a rail spur to the trail we have today?

Rails were removed in the late 80s, Hennepin bought the corridor in the early 90s, and the trail was built in segments during the 2000s.

Original Uptown routing plan did use the trench, then would go north towards downtown on Blaisdell, Nicollet, and/or 1st. This is at least from the 3A vs 3C/3C-alt2 debate circa 2009. Here's some good background: https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/200 ... to-uptown/

3A was selected for a few reasons. First, FTA at the time significantly prioritized speed. Second, there was a vocal contingent supporting 3A as an equity play for North Minneapolis (Van White and Penn stations and bus connectivity). Third, it was (wrongly) assumed to be cheaper.

At the time, it was assumed the TCW freight rail would turn north onto the Dan Patch through St. Louis Park then turn east onto the BNSF Wayzata Sub near the West End. St. Louis Park fought this, which resulted in having to co-locate LRT, TCW, and the bike trail through the Kenilworth corridor, which resulted in the expensive shallow tunnel. Also, it was assumed they could run next to BNSF in the county-owned corridor, but BNSF forced a ridiculous concrete crash wall between LRT and their tracks. There are other factors, such as 3C not interlining with the Blue/Green line, and 3C-Alt2 requiring a circuitous route to connect with the existing Blue/Green on 5th.

Suffice to say, choosing 3A did not result in a project cost of <$1 billion and service did not start in 2015-2017.

Edit: I see we're on page 279 of this thread. What a history.

[DanPatchToget]

Did the original uptown routing plan to use the midtown greenway trench?
And if so when did the trench get converted from a rail spur to the trail we have today?

Rails were removed in the late 80s, Hennepin bought the corridor in the early 90s, and the trail was built in segments during the 2000s.

Original Uptown routing plan did use the trench, then would go north towards downtown on Blaisdell, Nicollet, and/or 1st. This is at least from the 3A vs 3C/3C-alt2 debate circa 2009. Here's some good background: https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/200 ... to-uptown/

3A was selected for a few reasons. First, FTA at the time significantly prioritized speed. Second, there was a vocal contingent supporting 3A as an equity play for North Minneapolis (Van White and Penn stations and bus connectivity). Third, it was (wrongly) assumed to be cheaper.

At the time, it was assumed the TCW freight rail would turn north onto the Dan Patch through St. Louis Park then turn east onto the BNSF Wayzata Sub near the West End. St. Louis Park fought this, which resulted in having to co-locate LRT, TCW, and the bike trail through the Kenilworth corridor, which resulted in the expensive shallow tunnel. Also, it was assumed they could run next to BNSF in the county-owned corridor, but BNSF forced a ridiculous concrete crash wall between LRT and their tracks. There are other factors, such as 3C not interlining with the Blue/Green line, and 3C-Alt2 requiring a circuitous route to connect with the existing Blue/Green on 5th.

Suffice to say, choosing 3A did not result in a project cost of <$1 billion and service did not start in 2015-2017.

Edit: I see we're on page 279 of this thread. What a history.

The trench was a through-route for trains until the tracks on the east end were severed in 1998, and TC&W moved to what was planned to be a temporary routing in the Kenilworth Corridor. Also apparently a grain silo near Chicago Avenue was still being served by rail from the west until the very late 90s or very early 00s.

[mattaudio]

Ah I was looking at the wrong segment on a list of rail dates. Yes, the thing that severed the through-routing of SOO/TCW trains was MnDOT's project to build a SPUI interchange at Hiawatha and Lake, right? That would have been in the late 90s.

[twincitizen]

A 2 extension to 21st station would be 1 mile long, with stops at the Kenwood business district and lake of the isles. I think being anchored by a light rail station would generate solid demand for that mile. Layover would need to be figured out but doesn’t seem like a reason we could never do it

The main flaw with that idea is still the massive mismatch in service demand. The 2 needs a bus every 10 minutes, all day, 7 days a week. The hypothetical routing west of Hennepin Ave will never need anything close to that frequency or span of service. It would be an enormous waste of resources to send every single 2 rambling through Kenwood. By necessity it would have to be a branch of the 2 with like half the frequency or less. It just doesn't make sense operationally.
If you're determined to extend the 2 to connect with SWLRT, operationally it could make just as much sense to send the 2 up Hennepin to Dunwoody to hit BCV Station instead of 21st.

Going up Hennepin to Basset Creek Valley Station is pretty different geometrically compared to continuing west to 21st though. The goal isn't just to connect to the Green Line, otherwise why not transfer at west bank station? Its about the network - and the types of trips that connections between SWLRT and the 2 Bus would facilitate would be between the southwest suburbs and the service area of the 2 Bus. Going up Hennepin would essentially be backtracking, and it would also be duplicative of the E Line.

I understand the desire to connect the Franklin Ave corridor to SWLRT. In theory, it could offer a relatively direct way to get from points along Franklin to job locations in the suburbs.

But there are a couple flaws in this thinking. For one, the 2 is very slow and even if upgraded to ABRT would not be considerably faster because Franklin is being rebuilt without any possibility of future bus lanes. More importantly, the 2 does not operate in a vacuum. If you're starting east of a certain point, taking the 2 westbound for several miles to Hidden Beach is not going to be the fastest way to get where you're going. If you're on east Franklin near the Blue Line, it would obviously be faster to head downtown on the Blue Line and transfer to Green (not to mention that's an all-rail trip). If you're mid-Franklin like around Chicago Ave, it could be faster to take the super-frequent D Line downtown and transfer to rail. I will concede that if you're at Franklin & Lyndale, sure, a westward extension of the 2 might be the fastest way to complete that trip. But for anyone starting out east of Nicollet, or certainly east of 35W, there's likely already a faster bus connection to LRT than this hypothetical 2 extension would be.

This scenario is a pretty good example of transit advocates getting overly obsessed with straight lines on a map rather than the actual fastest way to get from A to B. I have for sure have fallen into this trap myself.

Just to share the comment I left on the Strib article:
I'm not sure I understand the obsession with routing the 2 to this specific station. Route 25 already serves this neighborhood and gets within a block of the station. Current demand is so low that this branch of the 25 only runs once per day: one bus into downtown in the morning and one bus back out in the afternoon. Frequency on that branch can be scaled up as needed. Metro Transit could just as easily extend Route 2 by sending it up Hennepin & Duwoody to reach the Bassett Creek Station (which also lacks bus service), or send it down Hennepin & Lake to end at West Lake Station. It's better to think of 21st Street as a station primarily serving residents within walking distance, as well as park and trail users. There's no rule that every LRT station needs to have a bus connection. 50th St / Minnehaha Park Station has no bus service. Victoria St and Western Ave Stations have no bus service.