Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[sad panda]

TC&W has issues with the new route under study. http://www.startribune.com/local/west/243775521.html

[David Greene]

TC&W has issues with the new route under study. http://www.startribune.com/local/west/243775521.html

What does this mean?

"He also said that the new plan and previous reroute options would sometimes run TC&W loads uphill rather than downhill in the Kenilworth corridor."

[mattaudio]

My guess is that the majority of tonnage is heading east through the corridor (grain/ethanol east to market, empties west to elevators). There's a slight downhill grade right now through the Kenilworth corridor. Using MN&S results in an uphill climb at SLP and then a downhill stretch at the Iron Triangle curve. This could theoretically mean more required motive power. The RR is probably thinking about how it can get mitigation dollars just like the U or MPR.

[sad panda]

What Matt said. Operationally it would cost them a bit more money.

[mister.shoes]

Compromise :

Minneapolis consents to LRT and freight through Kenilworth together *with* the bike trails and no g.d. tunnel to save a boatload of money. If this means half the town homes in the pinch point have to go, that's a bummer. And a big one.

However, in exchange for "taking" the freight and using the "saved" funds, County 25 (which is for all practical purposes MN7) from MN100 to Lake Street is removed. I realize this is entirely within SLP borders, but the brunt of the traffic impact is borne by MPLS when drivers barrel into the Lake Street Squeeze. Also, I'm willing to bet that a large fraction of trips on Cty 25 can be handled by LRT. In addition, France Ave and Park Center Blvd are connected across the RR/LRT/Trail corridor. The France connection, in particular, will relieve thru traffic pressure on the West Lake area by moving drivers off the circuitous Excelsior->Market->Lake disaster of a route. Park Center Blvd will provide an additional N-S connector for the densifying 36th Street area so Belt Line Blvd isn't overwhelmed. SLP will agree to rezone the land reclaimed from Cty 25 and the industrial areas on either side of the transit corridor for high-density mixed use TOD. If SLP doesn't want the freight and does want the LRT and it's benefits, they need to remake a low-density disaster of an area into one that's worthy of the LRT line running through it. Finally, Metro Transit commits to the Midtown Corridor line. Full stop.

Here, I've even redone all their streets for them (a while ago)(click to enlarge):

[talindsay]

The challenge with that kind of crap-swap compromise is that it's exactly this type of swap that Minneapolis *thought* it was making with SLP back when some people think SLP agreed to take the freight reroute. Whether the historical record supports it or not (and I haven't dug enough to have an opinion), many people on the Mpls side believe they were duped by SLP so they are unwilling to discuss compromises with them.

[HiawathaGuy]

Compromise :

Minneapolis consents to LRT and freight through Kenilworth together *with* the bike trails and no g.d. tunnel to save a boatload of money. If this means half the town homes in the pinch point have to go, that's a bummer. And a big one.

However, in exchange for "taking" the freight and using the "saved" funds, County 25 (which is for all practical purposes MN7) from MN100 to Lake Street is removed. I realize this is entirely within SLP borders, but the brunt of the traffic impact is borne by MPLS when drivers barrel into the Lake Street Squeeze. Also, I'm willing to bet that a large fraction of trips on Cty 25 can be handled by LRT. In addition, France Ave and Park Center Blvd are connected across the RR/LRT/Trail corridor. The France connection, in particular, will relieve thru traffic pressure on the West Lake area by moving drivers off the circuitous Excelsior->Market->Lake disaster of a route. Park Center Blvd will provide an additional N-S connector for the densifying 36th Street area so Belt Line Blvd isn't overwhelmed. SLP will agree to rezone the land reclaimed from Cty 25 and the industrial areas on either side of the transit corridor for high-density mixed use TOD. If SLP doesn't want the freight and does want the LRT and it's benefits, they need to remake a low-density disaster of an area into one that's worthy of the LRT line running through it. Finally, Metro Transit commits to the Midtown Corridor line. Full stop.

My god that's amazing.

[mattaudio]

Isn't it? Our fetish maps need to see more light of day!

[mister.shoes]

My god that's amazing.

Thanks

The genesis was mattaudio's plan for MN7/MN100, but when you think about it getting rid of that short section of Cty 25 would have some pretty big plusses for MPLS as well. While I realize there are some valuable and functional commercial/industrial uses along that corridor right now, it's the *perfect* place for _proper_ TOD. I mean, really, we're putting a station at Belt Line Blvd in the middle of warehouses next to a four lane highway with four additional lanes of frontage road. Really? This is the best we can do with that area?

[Anondson]

SLP's station area plan for the Beltline station showed the city's desire to convert Cty25 to a city arterial-type street and redevelop the land, connecting the street grid north to the grid south.

Do not expect France to ever get connected this century. But if Minneapolis can twist arms to make it happen as a consequence of accepting freight, LRT, and bike in the Kenilworth corridor, power to them.

[mattaudio]

a city arterial-type street

Oh no! A stroad!

[Nick]

Am I the only one who is REALLY geeked out by the use of the word fetish? Because all I can think of when I hear "fetish maps" is that episode of King of the Hill where Peggy accidentally makes foot fetish porn. Let's move away from that?

[Anondson]

a city arterial-type street

Oh no! A stroad!

Eeew, hope not. The city people at the charrette were suggesting something more like what Excelsior is around Excelsior and Grand. They kind of shrugged their shoulders when I asked them if it could ever happen, narrowing 25, they said they could only ask but they didn't think the county would ever let it happen.

[mattaudio]

more like what Excelsior is around Excelsior and Grand.

Excelsior is a stroad. A "beautified" stroad, but still a stroad.

[twincitizen]

A real progressive metro/county would have long planned for the removal of CR-25/MN-7 east of 100 (heck maybe east of 169) with LRT coming in.

I love, love, love that map (and I'm pretty sure the CR-25 removal idea came from me), but I can promise you that France Ave won't be connected over the RR (whether freight, LRT, or both). South of the RR however, France Ave is planned to be connected to Park Glen/32nd with a 4-way intersection, opening up some connections that don't exist today at a fraction of the cost of a France Ave bridge.

[mattaudio]

The CR25 removal idea was indeed twincitizen's. The 100/7 trumpet interchange blended with no-weave Mtka Blvd ramps was my addition. And mister.shoes went ahead and made it look real.

[mister.shoes]

My apologies for excluding your credit, twincitizen. It's a great idea. My role here is taking other people's ideas (and occasionally my own) and turning them into maps to get people talking

[Anondson]

more like what Excelsior is around Excelsior and Grand.

Excelsior is a stroad. A "beautified" stroad, but still a stroad.

Do you have an example of something more realistically achievable for what Cty25 could be replaced with?

[mattaudio]

Do you have an example of something more realistically achievable for what Cty25 could be replaced with?

What's not realistic about this? CR 25 is a relic of a previous plan to build a freeway through the Kenilworth corridor. If we were to have a fourth aux lane in each direction on 100 between 394 and 7, it would encourage more traffic to take 394 rather than going through Uptown. The other traffic can use Mtka or Excelsior to connect to Uptown. And the point is that these areas should be oriented around station nodes, not car sewers.

[Anondson]

Do you have an example of something more realistically achievable for what Cty25 could be replaced with?

What's not realistic about this?

To heck with what I think is realistic, I'm seriously interested in what kind of street YOU think would go there instead. (To say nothing of the fact the TH100/TH7/Minnetonka reconstruction project has already left the station and will begin shortly )

There is a lot to be said about it, for instance I think the removal of stop light at 100/7 would hugely reduce the traffic at 36th/Wooddale improving the trail crossing safety there and the Wooddale station area.