Northern Lights Express

[MNdible]

The SPUD article in the Strib this weekend seemed to allude to the possibility that NLX still might terminate there.

Is it time to start thinking about an in-line station for Minneapolis in northeast?

[mattaudio]

Yes. There's been talk about a station at Foley Park & Ride serving Amtrak, NLX, and Northstar. While that would probably be fine, something in NE Mpls would be better.

Now into full fantasy territory, sure seems like a station at the Minneapolis Junction wye (to allow direct service on NLX and Empire Builder to St. Paul would work as long as we...

Scrap the at-grade Nicollet-Central streetcar.
Replace with a grade-separated, automated light metro / APM connecting at least downtown and NE and intercity train station at the wye.

[Tom H.]

I'm sure there's lots of reasons why it wouldn't work, but I kind of like the idea of a station just northeast of Huntington Bank Stadium that could provide a transfer point to the LRT system at the Stadium Village station.

[MNdible]

This may be what Matt was suggesting, but I'd look at the NE quadrant of Central and Broadway. Looks like there's some room there, including what appears to be a lightly used siding track. It's past the wye, so it could be served by Northstar.

[Silophant]

NW quadrant, right? The other track in the NE quadrant doesn't connect to the wye. I think you could do much worse for a Minneapolis intercity station than the old General Mills facility at 12th between Central and Van Buren.

That being said, I suspect that the plan is to simply have NLX trains, which should be push-pull anyway, back out of Target Field and continue to Union Depot after that. Not as efficient for Duluth-St. Paul passengers, but it doesn't require a whole new station, and, as a bonus, makes Target Field Station Amtrak ready for TCMC and any future Chicago services to easily hit both cities.

[MNdible]

Yes, NW quadrant! And that General Mills building was exactly the site that I was looking at.

I'm unclear what the rules are for running push-pull service, but if they can get away with it on NLX, then I'd agree coming into Target Field station is better, and for the few riders continuing on to St. Paul it's a minor time penalty but better than having to transfer to the Green Line.

Obviously the Empire Builder won't run push-pull. What about the additional Chicago service?

[Tom H.]

Is the push-pull impact lessened since both SPUD and Target Field Station are "back-out" stations if it followed the BNSF Midway trackage? Meaning a train coming from the west/north would pull into TFS, run backwards / "pushing" to SPUD, then exit SPUD "pulling" again? In other words, for a through-running train, both stations are reverse-points so only the short portion of the route through Midway would be in "push mode".

This also made me realize I don't actually know what route the Empire Builder takes west of St Paul. I've seen it running along Shepard Road so it must through-run SPUD, but does it turn up Ayd Mill to get back to the Minneapolis Wye?

[Tcmetro]

I believe it still uses the Merriam Park Subdivision, which runs along And Mill and Shepard Roads.

[MNdible]

Is the train able to reverse directions at the Duluth end? I can't picture where that would happen.

[Silophant]

I think they'll have to be push-pull for the Duluth end of the route anyway, yeah. I don't believe there's a wye or loop anywhere near the station downtown. The TCMC service is going to be an extension of one of the existing CHI-MKE Hiawatha trains, which already have a locomotive at each end, so I'd imagine that would be a no-brainer to have continue to Target Field when NLX makes it Amtrak-ready.

The California Zephyr backs into Denver Union Station as it goes through, so the long-haul trains can back into a station if they need to, but it's probably not worth the added time just ten miles from a through-running station. It would be nice for the EB to stop at the NLX Foley station, though, it's kinda silly to have a 75-mile gap between St. Paul and St. Cloud stations in the most densely populated part of the route between Milwaukee and Seattle.

[HuskyGrad]

Most regional Amtrak services are in a push-pull configuration. Many of these currently use F40PH locomotives converted into "Cabbage" cars on the opposite end from the locomotive with a cab and room for baggage. The remainder use other cab car configurations. Most regional lines, including Brightline, VIA Rail, and Amtrak are moving to Siemens Venture based rolling stock. While Brightline uses two locomotives, most others use/will use a cab/passenger car similar to what is used on OBB's RailJet service in Austria.

[DanPatchToget]

Is the push-pull impact lessened since both SPUD and Target Field Station are "back-out" stations if it followed the BNSF Midway trackage? Meaning a train coming from the west/north would pull into TFS, run backwards / "pushing" to SPUD, then exit SPUD "pulling" again? In other words, for a through-running train, both stations are reverse-points so only the short portion of the route through Midway would be in "push mode".

This also made me realize I don't actually know what route the Empire Builder takes west of St Paul. I've seen it running along Shepard Road so it must through-run SPUD, but does it turn up Ayd Mill to get back to the Minneapolis Wye?

From St. Paul going west Amtrak climbs what is referred to as Short Line Hill (part of Canadian Pacific's Merriam Park Subdivision), which is along Ayd Mill Road. They cross over Snelling Avenue just south of Allianz Field, and then slowly go through Minnesota Commercial Railway's yard (where the old Amtrak station is), and through the St. Anthony Park neighborhood. From there I think normally they take BNSF's Midway Subdivision, which goes through Minneapolis Junction and the potential NE Minneapolis station that's been discussed, but sometimes (not sure how frequently) they go north a short distance and use BNSF's St. Paul Subdivision.

[commissioner]

Most regional Amtrak services are in a push-pull configuration. Many of these currently use F40PH locomotives converted into "Cabbage" cars on the opposite end from the locomotive with a cab and room for baggage. The remainder use other cab car configurations. Most regional lines, including Brightline, VIA Rail, and Amtrak are moving to Siemens Venture based rolling stock. While Brightline uses two locomotives, most others use/will use a cab/passenger car similar to what is used on OBB's RailJet service in Austria.

The only Amtrak regional trains (at least in the Midwest) that are push-pull are the Hiawatha trains. Everything else gets turned at the ends. I can't see BNSF allowing a train to back the mile or so from Minneapolis junction to Target Field because it will take forever and that line is pretty busy anyway and a train backing up a mile or so going 10mph will jam things up in a hurry.

[mattaudio]

The bridge over the river is double-tracked, but there are tiny single-track choke points at the Target Field Station throat and the southern leg of the Mpls Jct wye. Somewhere in a thread long ago I suggested converting these to double crossovers so there are effectively two mains from Mpls Jct to TFS. An additional upgrade would be double-tracking one or both curves of the wye.

These changes would allow backing into TFS or turning around trainsets without as much blocking of freight, particularly the Wayzata Sub to Northtown movement.

Regarding a hypothetical station inside the wye, those used to be quite common. St. Cloud's Great Northern station was in one (the depot building still stands as the yard office).

[Silophant]

I went back and dug up the (now five-year-old, sigh) environmental assessment. At least at that time, the rolling stock to be procured was three trainsets, each consisting of six coaches and two locomotives capable of push-pull operation. I'm not sure how they determine the need for two locomotives vs one with a cab car at the other end.

Additionally, the proposed modifications to TFS did include upgrading to full double track from the station across the bridge and through the wye in the northeast direction. I wonder if double tracking the other curve towards St Paul wouldn't be the starting point for the TFS-SPUD connection.

[Silophant]

A funding bill has been introduced in the Senate.

[Trademark]

IT'S HAPPPENIINNNNNG!!!!!!

[seanrichardryan]

[alexschief]

Since this looks increasingly realistic, I have some basic questions for people more in the know:

- Would this be double tracked the entire way? Or would there be timed passes? Or would there be just a single trainset operating each day, going back and forth?
- Assuming it would use diesel locomotives and nothing would be electrified? Are there any plans for electrification?
- If this funding passes by the end of the session, when would this service expected to launch?

[MNdible]

Per MNdot, there are an average of 6 freight trains a day using this section of tracks (north of the junction at Coon Rapids). It's mostly single tracked with some sidings for passing.

I'm not an expert on this project, but with 100% certainty I'll tell you that it's not going to be entirely double tracked and it's not going to be electrified.