Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
NickP
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by NickP »

Does anyone know the reasoning and cost breakdown of why they are elevating the road but not the rail at Bass Lake Road. Just by the photo it seems like it will require a lot more infrastructure to grade separate the road than the lrt line.
Anondson
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by Anondson »

Probably costs. Elevating the rail would mean an elevated station, and would mean putting in stupidly expensive American elevators.

Keeping the station at ground level would definitely make it more accessible and less expensive.
NickP
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by NickP »

Ah the elevators! That’s the part I was missing.
Silophant
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by Silophant »

I'm guessing that first bullet point is also a pretty big factor. Using transit dollars to improve vehicle operations? Irresistible!

That being said, it should be notably less awful to get to Bass Lake Road Station than the other Bottineau Blvd median stations, so it's not necessarily the end of the world.
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DanPatchToget
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by DanPatchToget »

Along Bottineau Boulevard/CR 81 through Robbinsdale and Crystal and along West Broadway through Brooklyn Park are trains going to have signal preemption like they do along Hiawatha Avenue, or is it going to be bar signals with some intersections having priority for trains and others no priority like the Green Line along University Avenue? If it's the former then great, if it's the latter then that's a big thumbs down from me. I assume through Minneapolis it's going to be bar signals, so how many intersections in that area will have signal priority for trains and how many won't?

With the existing Green Line they tried to mash together the cheapness of a streetcar (while still having fully dedicated right-of-way) and the speed of a real metro, which on paper seems like a good idea, but in reality it means late trains all the time, many accidents and close calls with cars and pedestrians, and a slow travel time. I fear this project will be the same, so the farther out you're going the less attractive it'll be to choice riders. If you're going to/from North Minneapolis it probably won't be as bad, but the point of this project is to be a regional connector, so the standards for speed and reliability have to be higher than a service geared towards short-distance trips.

Also couple more questions, and a rant:
What's going to happen to the existing transit center in downtown Robbinsdale since they're proposing a new one by the proposed LRT station?

Does the station at Oak Grove Parkway really need a park & ride ramp? Why not start with a parking lot?

I'm sure part of the reason for choosing to grade-separate the road and not the tracks and station is because Lake Street/Midtown and Franklin and their elevators have been trashed, so they've learned an at-grade station is less maintenance intensive. Selfishly as a train operator I'm not a fan of the at-grade stations since it means more crossings which means more places for people and cars to get in the way of trains plus more crossing signals that could malfunction or break (not a huge issue on the existing Blue Line, but it does get the heart pounding when you're approaching a crossing at 45 miles per hour and a car stops under the crossing gate or breaks the crossing gate). Elevated stations can be just as accessible as at-grade stations if designed right, but unfortunately that also depends on people having respect for taxpayer-funded infrastructure, and the USA severely lacks that respect.
Tcmetro
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by Tcmetro »

The Bass Lake Road sidewalk routes underneath the CR81 ramps so it's actually a fairly nice design. I think the big issues are going to be with noise and lighting.
twincitizen
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by twincitizen »

Wezle wrote: July 9th, 2024, 10:41 am
twincitizen wrote: April 11th, 2024, 11:55 am
I certainly agree on needing to extend 8th Ave in North Loop, as I've been obsessed with that idea for over a decade. It really needs to connect to 3rd Street, not just the bare minimum of connecting to 4th. It looks like they could get nearly 60' of ROW measuring from the edge of Salvation Army's loading dock to the edge of the pavement of the Cameron building's parking lot. You could squeeze out a few more feet by narrowing the parking lot's drive aisle and going to all compact parking, going diagonal, etc.

Edit: Jesus Christ that loading dock is new, built sometime in the past 5 years. It infuriates me that the City has had the 8th Ave connection in small area plans for 15-20 years, but has made less than zero effort to acquire or preserve the ROW to make it happen. They could have acquired an easement when the Cameron building was vacant for years or when it needed approvals for residential conversion a decade ago. They could have acquired an easement from Salvation Army as well during the planning for the loading dock addition. The way things are going the City will probably let Shafer-Richardson plop another apartment building directly where 8th Ave would go.
According to a recent presentation to the Met Council, the updated imagery that they're showing now includes a connection of 8th Ave between N 5th St and N 3rd St. Looks like you're getting what you were hoping for TwinCitizen!

https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... pdate.aspx
Very cool to see this! Aside from the 8th Avenue dream finally coming true, it looks like they propose a dramatic road diet on 7th St N next to Heywood Garage. Lots to like on slide 31!

While it doesn't directly impact the LRT project, I think it would be good to start organizing a pressure campaign to tear down the North Loop viaducts. Ideally that could be done at the same time LRT construction is taking place. It just makes too much sense to get those viaducts out of the way sooner rather than later. Even just knowing that they will definitely be gone some day might shift some of the planning for LRT and the local street connections. It seems short-sighted to plan around them as if they will be around forever.
Anondson
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by Anondson »

Wezle wrote:According to a recent presentation to the Met Council, the updated imagery that they're showing now includes a connection of 8th Ave between N 5th St and N 3rd St. Looks like you're getting what you were hoping for TwinCitizen!

https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... pdate.aspx
Image
COLSLAW5
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by COLSLAW5 »

new draft plans for July 24 2024 are out for the municipal consent process

https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... ments.aspx
twincitizen
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by twincitizen »

Roll plots are always fun to look at. I believe this is the first detailed look we've gotten at how Broadway would be laid out.

Tip: when scrolling through the Minneapolis PDF, be aware that when the route turns west at Broadway/21st, the drawings are flipped south-north
DanPatchToget
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by DanPatchToget »

COLSLAW5 wrote: August 16th, 2024, 10:53 am new draft plans for July 24 2024 are out for the municipal consent process

https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... ments.aspx
Okay so just as I feared, lots of bar signals, and this time in the middle of a suburban car sewer. Not sure if that's better or worse than the middle of University Avenue, but either way I don't like it. Whether there's signal priority for trains or not it won't be like along Hiawatha Avenue where we can cruise along at 45 miles per hour (I think early on in the Hiawatha Line days it was even 55 miles per hour). I'm guessing no interest in trying to design it like the Blue Line along Hiawatha Avenue because that would mean needing cooperation with BNSF for the grade crossings and even if they cooperated it would also mean Bottineau wouldn't be as free flowing for car traffic (heaven forbid cars have to stop a little more than usual). Also accessing those stations in the middle of Bottineau is not going to be pleasant.

I won't go as far as saying this project needs to be cancelled, but if they're aiming for this to be a reliable and efficient regional transit service then it needs to be designed better, and it would be nice if that happened now instead of who knows how long after it opens with the design they're proposing now.
MNdible
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by MNdible »

I feel like it's too bad that they've forced the 21st Avenue bridge over 94 to be more than just an LRT bridge. If it didn't have to carry cars, bikes, and peds, it could have been elevated over the Broadway intersection, missed all of the 94 on and off ramps, and swept with a nice gentle radius into the 21st alignment.
mattaudio
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by mattaudio »

Strange that the 2 way bikeway on Oak Lake/10th Ave N is on the downtown side of the street from Olson to 7th (in front of WF), then hops across the street for the tiny block between 7th St and 8th Aves (adjacent to that new ugly Metro Transit building) then hops back across the street and tracks to the downtown side north of 8th Ave. There's no crosswalk indicated on the LRT curve and I assume fencing would prevent bikers from bombing across the tracks to use this short segment of sidewalk, but then that would just invite dangerous contraflow biking next to the tracks for this short segment.

And an echo for MNdible's great comment about the Washington Ave segment. Just elevate the train northbound before the I-94 onramp to Washington/17th Ave N, cross Broadway on an elevated and gentle higher-speed curve, cross the other freeway ramps, and drop back down before crossing Lydale Ave at the station.
Then still leave this proposed 21st Ave bridge/roadway connection, or just do a bike/walk bridge from Washington to 4th St across the freeway and offramp to serve the proposed bikeway a block north of Broadway.
Tom H.
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by Tom H. »

I dunno, I kind of like the "full-service" 21st St bridge. It calms exiting interstate traffic prior to Broadway, and I'm guessing it buys some goodwill to have it serve all users (not just transit). I'm guessing it's a fair bit cheaper than a flyover as well - and a flyover structure would be a lot more physically and visually imposing than the at-grade solution.
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by MNdible »

Sounds like Minneapolis may push hard to add a stop at Washington and Broadway, which probably makes some sense.

https://www.minnpost.com/metro/2024/08/ ... ion-built/
BikesOnFilm
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by BikesOnFilm »

DanPatchToget wrote: August 20th, 2024, 10:26 am I'm guessing no interest in trying to design it like the Blue Line along Hiawatha Avenue because that would mean needing cooperation with BNSF for the grade crossings and even if they cooperated it would also mean Bottineau wouldn't be as free flowing for car traffic (heaven forbid cars have to stop a little more than usual). Also accessing those stations in the middle of Bottineau is not going to be pleasant.
I'm surprised that they haven't thought to sweeten the Downtown Robbinsdale station experience with a bridge that allows riders to reach the station without crossing at grade and pedestrians to cross Bottineau unimpeded. Hard to keep claiming LRT is "dividing the city" if they're building a literal bridge between the two sides of the road.

Though so far it seems like the BLE team seems to only be interested in improving the pedestrian experience by building freeway overpasses for Bottineau Blvd, and since that wouldn't fit in this area, there's no point in doing anything.
twincitizen
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by twincitizen »

Reading that MinnPost article, along with earlier comments from staff & electeds in Robbinsdale and Crystal, it really sucks that those communities are still so dominated by car-first mindsets.
Crystal city officials want Hennepin County to rebuild West Broadway between Douglas Drive and the city limits so the road can handle any traffic spillover. “Their own regional forecast model shows 1,000 vehicles per day shift by 2040 from Bottineau to Broadway. It should be obvious that reducing the number of lanes on Bottineau is going to increase that shift, exacerbate that shift,” John Sutter, Crystal’s community development director, said in a phone interview.
Robbinsdale requested the downtown station to be south of 40th Ave, borderline pushing it beyond easy walking distance from the most active block of Broadway (north of 41st). Still walkable for an able-bodied person, but that extra block distance is almost a dealbreaker for an older person, and probably for most people in the winter. They also demanded a damn park & ride lot. In downtown Robbinsdale.

For some reason the first ring suburbs in this corner of the metro have not yet turned the corner to embrace a more urban future like Richfield and St. Louis Park and even Edina have. Robbinsdale and Crystal need new blood badly, and that applies to both their City Councils and staff, from what I've heard and experienced first hand.
Silophant
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by Silophant »

The Robbinsdale layout is the biggest frustration point of the new post-BNSF routing for me. Going from having the LRT station be right at the original depot that the historic downtown was built around, what was going to be the most walkable LRT station outside the core cities (and better than many stations in them) to being the Blue Line equivalent of the Elk River Northstar station is heartbreaking.
MNdible wrote: August 20th, 2024, 4:07 pm Sounds like Minneapolis may push hard to add a stop at Washington and Broadway, which probably makes some sense.

https://www.minnpost.com/metro/2024/08/ ... ion-built/
That makes a ton of sense, with the 2040 plan guiding that area towards mixed use and away from heavy industrial. It would also allow a direct connection to the Rt. 30 over to NE. If it does get added, it'd be nice if they could shift the Lyndale station a block or two west to provide better spacing. They'd lose the direct connection to the 22, of course, but if a downtown transfer is good enough for the D Line, presumably it's good enough for the 22 as well.
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Bakken2016
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by Bakken2016 »

Come out to NorthPoint Health & Wellness Center at 1256 Penn Ave N to voice your support for the Blue Line Extension this evening from 6pm - 8pm!
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thespeedmccool
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Post by thespeedmccool »

Mayor of Robbinsdale announced that the City Council will vote (possibly unanimously) to deny municipal consent. Their specific requests will include that
  • The Blue Line be elevated through Robbinsdale or that "significant" pedestrian accommodations are made
  • The Met Council clarify how many parking spaces are really needed at the Robbinsdale P&R and how that will impact traffic
  • The station at Lowry/North Memorial account for emergency and private traffic operations at the hospital
  • Since the Blue Line will divert traffic to West Broadway through Robbinsdale, the project should include the full reconstruction of West Broadway through Robbinsdale
  • The Met Council should do more anti-displacement work
  • The stations should include turnstiles
  • The Met Council should pay Robbinsdale PILOT funds for lost taxable land along Bottineau
  • The project should include the full reconstruction of two blocks of 40th.
Whole lotta nothing, IMO. Unless the politics of it all scares them off, the Met Council can safely just do some more 'study' on most of this, deny other portions, and throw Robbinsdale a bone by including pedestrian accommodations or whatever at some intersections (which they probably would've done anyway) and maybe commit to finding the funds to help with reconstructing West Broadway (this seems related to Hennepin County's imminent turnback of the road, so I guess Met Council could commit to offer regional solicitation funds for a rebuild.)

What a waste of energy, time, and money this whole process is.
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