Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

[rhettcarlson]

Love too grade separate an intersection with 10k AADT and run at grade through 6 lane arterials with 40k AADT.

[RoundaboutMan22]

I just don't see why we have to keep this intersection grade separated. I feel like a roundabout would fit this place perfectly. It creates a sense of place and increases safety. Maybe the AADT numbers are too high, but this is supposed to be a generational investment. We should improve the area, not JUST build a railroad. Also, I did just create an account for this post because it felt warranted.

[BikesOnFilm]

I just don't see why we have to keep this intersection grade separated. I feel like a roundabout would fit this place perfectly. It creates a sense of place and increases safety. Maybe the AADT numbers are too high, but this is supposed to be a generational investment. We should improve the area, not JUST build a railroad. Also, I did just create an account for this post because it felt warranted.

Welcome! I think you're probably right, but I feel like most of the people here (and probably a number of people planning this project) want to get past the point where the Park Board has any say in the process as quickly as possible.

[Bakken2016]

Even with all the Trump chaos:

The Federal Transit Administration has formally accepted and published the Supplemental Final Environmental Impact Statement.

https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/3e1b3f2

[thespeedmccool]

Well, LRT was fun while it lasted. Link

[acs]

The latest ridership projections were what, 16k a day? So less than the nearby C line? Yeah this should 100% go back to being a bus. The conventional math used to be that LRT only made sense over BRT above 20k riders a day due to needing fewer operators for the capacity.

If only we could do the same to the SWLRT.

[angrysuburbanite]

The latest ridership projections were what, 16k a day? So less than the nearby C line? Yeah this should 100% go back to being a bus. The conventional math used to be that LRT only made sense over BRT above 20k riders a day due to needing fewer operators for the capacity.

If only we could do the same to the SWLRT.

The current Blue Line has a ridership around 15-20k daily riders and the C Line has about 5k or less than half of the number you cited for BLRT. North Minneapolis is in need of faster ways for the many no-car households to get beyond downtown faster, something nothing but rail can deliver well. Frankly, post-COVID ridership projections mean nothing since travel patterns are quite unclear. This extension is a necessary addition to the current network; dragging it out with study after study about BRT is just going to result in a more and more delayed delivery of something people can ride.

It is stuff like this study requirement that make me wish Metro Transit didn't call the lettered lines or Red line BRT because while the lettered lines are great it waters down the expectations for "BRT" alternatives and makes studies like this more ripe for anti-transit folks. Just build the dang train, it's not that hard.

[Wezle]

Every year that we delay building these infrastructure projects means an increase in cost to build. Best time to build light rail on worthy corridors was yesterday, second best time is today. Half the reason these cost so much is we spend a million years bickering about how it should be done and then choose the worst compromise option that ends up costing more in the end.

[Tom H.]

Just use the local portion of funding and end it in Robbinsdale. (I know, I know, doesn't really work without the OMF, etc. etc.)

ETA: Republicans seek to gut federal funding for three Minnesota transit projects

[thespeedmccool]

Just use the local portion of funding and end it in Robbinsdale. (I know, I know, doesn't really work without the OMF, etc. etc.)

Hennepin County can't even do this now because the state is swooping in to tell the county it has to restudy an issue.

The state should either be in or out on transit. Either it funds transit and gets a say in how it's developed, or it cuts funding and gets out of the way. Since the state is cutting its Met Council transit subsidy, the state should get out of the way and let Hennepin County build a train if it wants to.

This is all so ridiculous. It's probably the most obvious "this should be rail" corridor in the metro right now, and "innovative" suburban centrists are comfortable making it a bus. The lack of vision legislators have for this state is astounding; it's no wonder we're falling behind places that actually believe in themselves.

[wingedmolotov]

What is the benefit of rail over true dedicated BRT?

[daveybabymsp]

What is the benefit of rail over true dedicated BRT?

Concrete benefits:

More passenger capacity. If the route is popular/during events, buses are more likely to experience overcrowding

Smoother ride: buses are generally bumpier

Accessibility: trains always stop flush with the edge of the station for wheelchair access

Winter operations: trains handle snow better than buses or cars

Possible benefits:

Some people argue there is a “rail bias” where people are more likely to take a train vs a bus with the same service due to real/perceived superiority of rail travel


Some people argue that because a bus is easier to kill than a train, trains induce more development on the route due to perceived permanece, also rail bias

Trains look cool

I’m sure I missed some stuff!

[twincitizen]

What is the benefit of rail over true dedicated BRT?

In this specific case, that it would interline with the Blue Line. All of the stations along the extension would gain a one-seat ride to the airport & MOA. That's a worthwhile benefit to building this corridor as LRT, even if the projected ridership of the extension is a marginal candidate for rail when viewed as a standalone project.

It's not an optimistic vision for the future, but I feel like the DFL or Walz could make an argument in favor of this project by declaring it to be "the last light rail project in MN". It's a bummer to think about it like that, but it's true! There are zero other light rail projects on the drawing board. No body of government (namely Hennepin County or Met Council) is looking at light rail in any other corridors. The 2050 Transportation plan has no additional rail beyond this project. This could quite literally be the last LRT line built in most of our lifetimes. I wish that wasn't the case, but it is. If it would get the damn thing built, I would be ok with Walz and DFL leaders in the legislature making that argument to the GOP if it would keep the project alive and moving forward. I would go so far as to say I'd be fine with a 20-year moratorium on light rail projects post-BLRT extension, because that's basically just affirming current policy. If that would be enough to "trick" the GOP to get out of the damn way on this project, do it!

[Mdcastle]

If we're still counting Northstar, I guess the final score in getting real rail instead of just buses is Minneapolis 4, St. Paul 1.

[Nick]

To be honest, while this project is vastly improved from a decade ago, it'd be a great trade to take the local half of the funding and spend the $x.x billion building out the ten or fifteen routes on the ABRT list. Cut the feds out of it and do it ourselves in half the time. The Minnesota Republicans aren't arguing for the bus in good faith, but shoot, maybe you catch them off-guard and get them to agree to it.

You'd have a bunch of leftover money--take the leftover money and convert some of the existing LRT stations to center island stations. Hand out another $100 million to some scam nonprofits. Build a 300 foot granite obelisk inscribed with the words "TRANSIT FUNDING" somewhere in the east metro. Everybody wins!

[quagga]

Nearly all of the Hennepin County funding committed for this can be redirected to any "transportation" purpose and not just transit.

[Bakken2016]

Nearly all of the Hennepin County funding committed for this can be redirected to any "transportation" purpose and not just transit.

That’s incorrect, the Hennepin County Transit Sales Tax can only be used for transit projects.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quagga]

Nearly all of the Hennepin County funding committed for this can be redirected to any "transportation" purpose and not just transit.

That’s incorrect, the Hennepin County Transit Sales Tax can only be used for transit projects.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are incorrect, and this is why Hennepin has moved away from that term: https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepi ... n-2024.pdf

tl;dr: "proceeds of the Transportation Tax must be designated by the respective county board exclusively to (1) payment of the capital cos of a specific transportation project or improvement; (2) payment of the costs, which may include both capital and operating costs, of a specific transit project or improvement; (3) payment of the capital cost of a safe routes to school program under Minnesota Statutes Section 174.40"

[nils]

What is the benefit of rail over true dedicated BRT?

In this specific case, that it would interline with the Blue Line. All of the stations along the extension would gain a one-seat ride to the airport & MOA. That's a worthwhile benefit to building this corridor as LRT, even if the projected ridership of the extension is a marginal candidate for rail when viewed as a standalone project.

It's not an optimistic vision for the future, but I feel like the DFL or Walz could make an argument in favor of this project by declaring it to be "the last light rail project in MN". It's a bummer to think about it like that, but it's true! There are zero other light rail projects on the drawing board. No body of government (namely Hennepin County or Met Council) is looking at light rail in any other corridors. The 2050 Transportation plan has no additional rail beyond this project. This could quite literally be the last LRT line built in most of our lifetimes. I wish that wasn't the case, but it is. If it would get the damn thing built, I would be ok with Walz and DFL leaders in the legislature making that argument to the GOP if it would keep the project alive and moving forward. I would go so far as to say I'd be fine with a 20-year moratorium on light rail projects post-BLRT extension, because that's basically just affirming current policy. If that would be enough to "trick" the GOP to get out of the damn way on this project, do it!

The Blue Line Extension was originally designed to be a commuter line, but Covid destroyed commuter demand. Not stoping to reflect on this is a mistake. There’s really no argument for this line to be rail at this point other than “rail is awesome”—which it is, but throwing $2 billion at a project that will not be used will only serve as an argument against future transit investment.

To gain support for future transit projects, we need to support transit projects that are likely to succeed. And—for better or worse—a transit project’s success is going to be judged by its ridership numbers. 10yrs ago that might’ve been a project like the BLE, but today that’s undoubtedly an intra-city line.

A new line that connects Uptown, Downtown, and Northeast would connect our three largest population, business, and entertainment centers with only ~5 miles of new rail. This line would have more ridership than all others combined and would be a success that could lead to funding more transit projects.

Continuing to support transit projects for the sake of supporting transit is a dead end.

[Bakken2016]

Nearly all of the Hennepin County funding committed for this can be redirected to any "transportation" purpose and not just transit.

That’s incorrect, the Hennepin County Transit Sales Tax can only be used for transit projects.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are incorrect, and this is why Hennepin has moved away from that term: https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepi ... n-2024.pdf

tl;dr: "proceeds of the Transportation Tax must be designated by the respective county board exclusively to (1) payment of the capital cos of a specific transportation project or improvement; (2) payment of the costs, which may include both capital and operating costs, of a specific transit project or improvement; (3) payment of the capital cost of a safe routes to school program under Minnesota Statutes Section 174.40"

I guess I am, thanks for the clarification. Alright, but the current board is not going to reroute the money from transit projects. We have a very transit friendly HBC.