Re: Washington Avenue
Posted: May 15th, 2013, 11:05 am
How about no right turn lanes?
Architecture, Development, and Infrastructure of the Twin Cities
https://urbanmsp.com/
Holy crap. 1k to 3k per hour? Does the 4/5/6 subway line in NYC even have this frequency??? I asked similar questions about the justification for the 3rd WB lane west of 5th, the justification of the 0.5% growth in VMT on the corridor despite direct vehicle count evidence to the contrary (and overall region/country changes in VMT), the notion that traffic should/could increase when we continue to make heavy investments in transit infrastructure as alternate modes, and the strong redevelopment of residential use along this corridor and downtown in general. The overall response was 'better be safe than sorry' and 'the study also didn't consider bad weather days or events like Vikings/Twins games.' Ugh.There was a moderate amount of interaction, primarily involving post-it notes that may be immediately discarded or possibly kept in a file for a while and then discarded. I asked a Hennepin County engineer in what circumstances he would consider dedicated bus lanes, and he said he might consider them if Metro Transit asked for them (I'm not aware of any situation in which Metro Transit has asked for dedicated lanes). I asked what he thought the threshold should be in terms of buses per hour before a dedicated lane was warranted and he said something like 1,000 to 3,000 per hour.
I had this exact same discussion with the Henn Cty project lead, Jennifer Lowry. I pointed out that the focus of putting bus stops in dedicated right turn lanes is obviously a car-centered mindset - heaven forbid a bus stopping mid block slow down traffic for a 15 second dwell time (or worse, get a dedicated lane). Furthermore, being in the right turn lane has the possibility of the bus needing to wait if the light is red with cars in the run queue. She also then said that safety was a concern (which I pointed out the blind crossing and cars turning right around the bus, a safety issue), as well as pedestrian convenience with corner stops. I challenge that notion because for every person convenienced by the corner dropoff, there is someone else who needs to backtrack a little if they go the opposite direction after disembarking. Fell on deaf ears.When I asked a consultant why most of the bus stops were in right turn lanes, she said she thought that it was a conscious decision to minimize the impact of transit on the car traffic. She said it had the advantage of being safer for transit riders, and when I pointed out that in fact right-turning traffic is the number one safety issue for transit riders, and that requiring the buses to pull out of general traffic and block the right-turn lanes would not only delay the buses but would encourage this dangerous behavior, she looked sheepish and agreed.
This was my first and I definitely left feeling this way. It was depressing.Never attend open houses on transportation issues. You will go home feeling terrible every time.
This doesn't seem to fix the problem of cars wanting to right turn around a bus at a stop.How about no right turn lanes?
So, to be clear: you want to provide 50% fewer lanes than what Hennepin County believes is necessary, and you want to eliminate left and right turn lanes. And then you want to take 50% of the remaining lanes and render them non-functional as through lanes. And did I mention that all of the lanes are 10' wide with 7' parking lanes?I pointed out that the focus of putting bus stops in dedicated right turn lanes is obviously a car-centered mindset - heaven forbid a bus stopping mid block slow down traffic for a 15 second dwell time...
It is depressing when not everybody subscribes to the very particular world view that you do. WHY DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND!Never attend open houses on transportation issues. You will go home feeling terrible every time.
This was my first and I definitely left feeling this way. It was depressing.
It would, however, fix the problem of the current design encouraging cars to turn right around a stopped bus.This doesn't seem to fix the problem of cars wanting to right turn around a bus at a stop.How about no right turn lanes?
Not sure what you're referring to here exactly, but I'd point out that Hennepin County is proposing 25% more lanes because of a 5% difference in congestion.So, to be clear: you want to provide 50% fewer lanes than what Hennepin County believes is necessary, and you want to eliminate left and right turn lanes. And then you want to take 50% of the remaining lanes and render them non-functional as through lanes.
What is depressing to me is the complete lack of interest, much less understanding, in and of the only mode that has any proven chance of forestalling the impending self-wrought climactic disruption to our economy and culture. Not to mention the fact that the people who are paid six figures to understand transportation don't even bother to look into some of the most popular forms of transportation on earth.It is depressing when not everybody subscribes to the very particular world view that you do. WHY DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND!
Actually, my proposal went with 2 lanes each direction with dedicated left turn lanes at intersections (although it required a wiggle in the 110' ROW section) and shared right hand turn lanes. The county only required for one intersection )which happens to be at a cross street where no left-turn is allowed http://www.hennepin.us/files/HennepinUS ... pr2013.pdf page 41), which would allow my proposal to shift the dedicated left-lane to the right lane. My proposal also kept 10-11 ft thru lane widths, 8' parking lane widths (separated from moving traffic, btw), and much wider pedestrian spaces (with the only drawback being shared bike/slip lane car space vs dedicated cycle tracks):So, to be clear: you want to provide 50% fewer lanes than what Hennepin County believes is necessary, and you want to eliminate left and right turn lanes. And then you want to take 50% of the remaining lanes and render them non-functional as through lanes. And did I mention that all of the lanes are 10' wide with 7' parking lanes?I pointed out that the focus of putting bus stops in dedicated right turn lanes is obviously a car-centered mindset - heaven forbid a bus stopping mid block slow down traffic for a 15 second dwell time...
No. It's depressing when you raise legitimate concerns that have impact on the future of how this street/area/corridor will develop and interact with people and get brushed aside. It's depressing when they are holding a public forum to get peoples' views, and when these people who care enough AND have the time in their busy lives to come out and give respectful feedback, they take said feedback and give half-baked or flat out incorrect justifications for their thoughts.It is depressing when not everybody subscribes to the very particular world view that you do. WHY DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND!
Also this. If we as people can't have the guts to say we're going to inconvenience PEAK commuters (drivers) by 2?, 3?, 4?, 5? minutes at the end of their journey as a small step of many that will culminate in a drastic change in lifestyle necessary to help reverse the effects of climate change (and, one could make a case for economic disparity for those with poor access to jobs/amenities due to land-use), then yeah, this is depressing.What is depressing to me is the complete lack of interest, much less understanding, in and of the only mode that has any proven chance of forestalling the impending self-wrought climactic disruption to our economy and culture. Not to mention the fact that the people who are paid six figures to understand transportation don't even bother to look into some of the most popular forms of transportation on earth.
I go to these things for the cookies, but I when I walked by the refreshment table it was nothing but crumbs. Maybe that's why everyone's so critical?!I would also like to add that there were refreshments provided, so I don't know why everyone is being so critical.
No Chateaubriand? Sacre bleu!I go to these things for the cookies, but I when I walked by the refreshment table it was nothing but crumbs. Maybe that's why everyone's so critical?!
Wouldn't southbound Portland still be used by people driving to 4th so they could either leave downtown or find a parking ramp by the stadium/park?Anyone else think it's crazy the design options show dedicated turn lanes to southbound Portland Ave if Portland ends up severed between 4th and 5th Streets?