Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[twincitizen]

No one "waited this late in the game." Those options were studied *years* ago and rejected.

Come on David, you're kind of stretching the truth there. The other options (to reroute further west) weren't necessarily "rejected". The SLP re-route was chosen by Hennepin County (in 2009) because it was estimated to cost only $48MM. That is of key importance to this discussion. Now that it costs $200MM or whatever, the right thing to do is to take another look at those connections west of the metro. The consultant had a conflict of interest because they work for the railroad. The railroad doesn't favor the Chaska cut-off or Western Connector options because it would impact some of their operations closer in. From a metro area livability standpoint, either of those options removes some freight operations from SLP, Hopkins, etc. and removes some traffic from the BNSF line under Target Field and the Interchange area. Those outcomes are all positive, except to the railroad. For $150MM or whatever, perhaps we can accomodate & compensate TC&W, while simultaneously improving the quality of life along the tracks further in. That's worth taking another look into and I'm a little surprised SLP, Hopkins, and Minneapolis aren't begging for it. Then again, we're too busy fighting each other to demand something better.

After reading the report below, I completely understand & agree with Hennepin County's insistence on the re-route (absent of options further west). It's not just about the bike trail in Kenilworth...there are other benefits to removing freight tracks from areas further in. The report notes that the areas most negatively impacted by co-location are actually in St. Louis Park: the Beltline and Wooddale Station areas.

http://www.hennepin.us/files/HennepinUS ... 202011.pdf

[Tcmetro]

The Mitchell station serves the Eden Prairie City Hall as well as the surrounding industrial park. I would imagine a significant chunk of the ridership will come from the nearly 1000 space parking ramp.

As for 21st St., I don't think it is a big loss. Ridership will definitely be low, and it isn't a long walk from the Penn Ave. station along the bicycle trail. The biggest loss would be the connectivity from an extended #2 or #67 bus, providing access to Franklin Ave. from the southwest.

[Ubermoose]

No one "waited this late in the game." Those options were studied *years* ago and rejected.

After reading the report below, I completely understand & agree with Hennepin County's insistence on the re-route (absent of options further west). It's not just about the bike trail in Kenilworth...there are other benefits to removing freight tracks from areas further in. The report notes that the areas most negatively impacted by co-location are actually in St. Louis Park: the Beltline and Wooddale Station areas.

http://www.hennepin.us/files/HennepinUS ... 202011.pdf

I think those numbers are a bit skewed. There was never as much traffic in either of those areas until MNDot skrewed up the ramps to and from Hwys 7 and 100. I think that once they complete the bridge replacement and redesign of Hwy 100 and the ramps, those 2 trouble spots will ease up some. Besides, I think most people I know would agree that putting up with those 2 spots far outweighs the other issues surrounding the reroute.

[David Greene]

No one "waited this late in the game." Those options were studied *years* ago and rejected.

Come on David, you're kind of stretching the truth there. The other options (to reroute further west) weren't necessarily "rejected".

They were rejected at the time. I agree it may be worth another look but your claim seemed to be that no one even considered these other ideas until now. That's just false as the document you linked makes clear.

But there is a cost to reexamining this. Delays in the project means inflationary increase. I could certainly imagine that taking the time to do the in-depth study needed to evaluate these options would swamp the ~$50 million in cost savings of a different reroute vs. the most expensive shallow tunnel option. Eliminate the north tunnel and I'll bet it's cheaper to just build the south tunnel than to do an in-depth study of other reroute options.

The document says pretty clearly that the Western Connector is a non-starter. The next cheapest option is $105 million, which is more expensive than a south-shallow-tunnel option.

The final section of the document is enlightening. It underscores just how bad, wrong and unexpected FTA's decision that SW LRT is causing the freight rail reroute is for the LRT project. No one saw that coming, which is why we're in the mess we're in.

[David Greene]

The Mitchell station serves the Eden Prairie City Hall as well as the surrounding industrial park. I would imagine a significant chunk of the ridership will come from the nearly 1000 space parking ramp.

If people are driving to Mitchell to use the Park & Ride, would they really not drive that one extra mile to Southwest station?

I'm more concerned about the immigrant communities in Eden Prairie. One of the CAC members representing those communities seemed to indicate the Mitchell station was important. I'll have to talk to him to get a better understanding of the issue.

As for 21st St., I don't think it is a big loss. Ridership will definitely be low, and it isn't a long walk from the Penn Ave. station along the bicycle trail. The biggest loss would be the connectivity from an extended #2 or #67 bus, providing access to Franklin Ave. from the southwest.

Why do you assume low ridership? I imagine a number of people living there work downtown and would take the LRT over the bus or driving. It would also provide nice access to Hidden Beach for people throughout the west metro.

I agree that the Franklin connection is an important consideration.

[NickP]

Was it ever explained why we need two tunnels on Kenilworth? I understand the reasoning for the southern one, as the trail gets a bit narrow there, but the area north of the channel bridge is pretty wide as I recall. Can someone help me out?

[talindsay]

I think it was a strategic idea that by suggesting two and then dropping one they could look like they were compromising. Seriously, that's the only reason I can see for it and they seem fairly willing to drop it.

[NickP]

Thanks Tom.

[MNdible]

I think it was a strategic idea that by suggesting two and then dropping one they could look like they were compromising. Seriously, that's the only reason I can see for it and they seem fairly willing to drop it.

So cynical.

[Tom H.]

The Mitchell Station is close to several large apartment communities with large immigrant communities (two around Mitchell and Valley View) and one large complex that is under construction on the NE corner of 212 & Mitchell. It would still be barely walkable to SW Station (I've done it!), but it's much less convenient.

[twincitizen]

Immigrant schmimmigrant. This is still Eden Prairie and the number of households with ZERO cars is extremely low. There will likely be increased circulator buses to wherever the line terminates. It's not like it won't eventually be extended to Mitchell anyways. If cutting the line at Southwest Station gets the project off the ground, then by all means it's the right thing to do. There's no LRT service out there at all right now. Not extending it to Mitchell Rd in the initial build-out isn't going to make anyone's life worse, so let's not get our "overly concerned liberal" panties in a bunch.

[Tom H.]

No argument from me.

[David Greene]

Was it ever explained why we need two tunnels on Kenilworth? I understand the reasoning for the southern one, as the trail gets a bit narrow there, but the area north of the channel bridge is pretty wide as I recall. Can someone help me out?

According to Peter Wagenius, Minneapolis was trying to create a situation that looked most like the freight re-route option. That is, both rail modes would not be visible at grade.

Essentially it's Minneapolis trying to salvage what it can from what it sees as a bad situation. There's no technical reason for a tunnel. This is politics.

[Mdcastle]

Is there enough parking at the end without including the Mitchell Road station? If not could more be built where the line does terminate? I don't know since I've never tried to park there and don't know what the ridership forecasts are.

[David Greene]

If cutting the line at Southwest Station gets the project off the ground, then by all means it's the right thing to do. There's no LRT service out there at all right now. Not extending it to Mitchell Rd in the initial build-out isn't going to make anyone's life worse, so let's not get our "overly concerned liberal" panties in a bunch.

I tend to agree but look at it from the point of view of the immigrant communities. Some rich white folk in CIDNA are jacking up the price of the line and as a result a station that serves a good number of immigrants (who are also people of color) is getting cut. That just looks really bad.

[David Greene]

Is there enough parking at the end without including the Mitchell Road station? If not could more be built where the line does terminate? I don't know since I've never tried to park there and don't know what the ridership forecasts are.

These are good questions. Hopefully we can get some answers at the CAC meeting tonight.

[RailBaronYarr]

Is there enough parking at the end without including the Mitchell Road station? If not could more be built where the line does terminate? I don't know since I've never tried to park there and don't know what the ridership forecasts are.

These are good questions. Hopefully we can get some answers at the CAC meeting tonight.

And proof that neither the Mitchell nor SW station will ever see any meaningful, walkable development around it if we need to build more (free of charge) parking surrounding the stations.

[UptownSport]

Following that news, Chair Haigh has rejected Mayor Rybak's (and others') call for further study of freight alternatives, setting up a showdown between Minneapolis and St. Louis Park. This is about to get really ugly.

Hornstein & Dibble take on Haigh, rather directly.

http://m.startribune.com/?id=225446842

We disagree and challenge your characterization that the Met Council has made a ‘good faith effort’ to examine alternative freight options,” the letter said. “Your actions yesterday reverse a commitment you made to us and other stakeholders to go back to the drawing board on the freight rail question.”
Hornstein, in an interview, said he, Dibble, Gov. Mark Dayton and Haigh met in August and agreed that further exploration of reroute possibilities was needed. 

[Tom H.]

Is there enough parking at the end without including the Mitchell Road station? If not could more be built where the line does terminate? I don't know since I've never tried to park there and don't know what the ridership forecasts are.

SW Station has ~800 existing P&R spots, and I believe the proposal was to add about 50% more at that station. Mitchell P&R was intended to have a larger overall parking facility than SWS, as I recall. It was projected to capture an extremely large drive-shed along Highways 5 and 212 to the west.

[helsinki]

It's irritating that local media repeat the phrase "two story berms through St. Louis Park" with no context. At what height, for what distance, and to what effect? You'd think the Berlin wall was being proposed.