Vikings Stadium Miscellaneous Discussion

[David Greene]

Maybe you're right, but did anyone building the Met Stadium or the Metrodome think they were building a structure that teams would only be happy with only 15 years (although maybe they were meant to be temporary, I wasn't old enough to recall discussions about building them so someone correct me if I'm wrong)

I don't know about the Dome, but Met stadium at least was a somewhat higher-class minor league park constructed and added on to to make it attractive to a major league team. I only had the chance to go there once so I can't really speak to the game-day experience. Certainly the owners let it deteriorate, just as the U did with Memorial Stadium. What a shame it was to lose the Brick House. There are high-profile stadiums from its era still being used and upgraded today.

[web]

Met stadium originally was built in 1956 and demo in 1982? Metrodome was 1982-2014 at least 26 and 32 are not 15!

and yes in sports anything over 20 yrs is old in the owners eyes

[min-chi-cbus]

It's like I say, if I ever somehow become a billionaire I'm definitely looking into buying a major league team! Cities just GIVE away their money to you -- how can you lose?! If only the rest of the real world were like it is for the top 0.1%!!

[mullen]

vikings should pay for anything they want that is above the hard budget, just as the twins did. it's so clear and they are reaping so much without a ton of oulay. a lot of their expenditure will be coming back to them. and the PSL's alone are a one time tax on the fan. just because it's standard NFL practice doesn't make it right. expecting payment just for the right to purchase a seat? not ethical...but that's modern day sports.

i want this to be a world class stadium but the team should not be expecting their additonal upfront money for better scoreboards, etc to be paid back from a contigency fund. but it sounds like that is what will happen.

yes, if i were a billinonaire, or even a multi millionaire i'd want to be a sports owner. it's a big toy and the public's thirst for sport is so vast. look at the guy who bought the jacksonville jaguars and the fulton soccer club in London. immigrant, self-made wealth.

[Didier]

Maybe you're right, but did anyone building the Met Stadium or the Metrodome think they were building a structure that teams would only be happy with only 15 years (although maybe they were meant to be temporary, I wasn't old enough to recall discussions about building them so someone correct me if I'm wrong) And we're thinking yet again they have their "forever homes". Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, Fool me thrice-- we'll see, shame on the entire region? I haven't been to a sporting event in about 10 years , but for a Twins game and Vikings game the only negative that I recall is them being located downtown and having to drive around looking for a parking space and then walk by beggers and scalpers.

I really hope I'm wrong and the Vikings, Twins, and Gophers are done crying and throwing temper tantrums because mama won't buy them a new stadium for a while, but I'm not sure. Maybe all the other teams will build new stadiums and the Vikings will again have fewer luxury suites than what a "peoples stadium" should have, or the Twins and Gophers decide they don't like it in the rain. And maybe with the new parking, skyways, parks and development downtown east will become a nice place to see a game, but that's not my current impression from my decade old trips there. It's been that long since I've been on foot in the area.

No offense, but your post makes it pretty clear that you don't know much about modern sports stadiums, so your post is basically unsubstantiated speculation.

There's no basis for suggesting that stadiums built to the standard of Target Field, TCF Bank Stadium or the new Vikings stadium will need to be replaced within the next 20-30 years, so implying that doom and gloom is likely to occur based on your feelings is irresponsible.

[Viktor Vaughn]

Wasn't the Target Center built to the standards of its day? Wasn't the Xcel Energy Center a bar-setting facility when it opened? Both the Wild and Timberwolves are claiming they need upgrades to bring them into them up to today's standards. As long as the stadium arms race continues, there is no reason to believe the Twins and Vikings will be satisfied with what they have in 20 years. That's probably why the Vikings insisted on a clause that legally requires the stadium authority to keep up with future NFL standards.

And remember, these stadiums are not replaced because they are functionally obsolete. They are replaced because they are economically obsolete - meaning they don't earn as much profit for team owners as other stadiums.

I hypothesized myself that this public-shakedown style of stadium construction may have finally run its course, and I sure hope so. Yet, the consistent history of welfare sports in this town strongly suggests that subsidies lead to more subsidies. Witness St Paul claiming that the Xcel will need upgrades to compete with the Target Center after it's remodeled.

We are never going to build a nice enough palace of business for these folks to stop demanding handouts. There's only one way this stops - when we realize these are not *our* teams and we tell the actual team owners to finance their own facilities, like every other for-profit business does.

[Didier]

Upgrading a facility and building a new one are very different. It'd be naive to think any building, stadium or not, never has to be upgraded. The difference is that the original quality of our three new stadiums will be built at a completely different standard than the Metrodome and especially Met Stadium. If you compare the relative costs between stadiums today and stadiums of 30 years ago, it's not even close.

Victor Vaughn, you also have to remember that public money is put into these stadiums in part because many, many people see a public good in having them. Xcel Energy Center totally changed that part of downtown St. Paul for the better, and Target Field has had huge effects on the North Loop. That's not to mention that our local pro sports teams are the biggest forms of entertainment here. The issue of public money isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be. We're not blindly throwing money at rich owners and getting nothing in return.

[Minneboy]

So you're saying that although private entities reap huge and unreachable profits for most people, it's okay because these arenas are for the public good. They are in essence like infrastructure because it helps other businesses make money, thus keeps up employment which in turn go back into the economy and then gets regurgitated again and again. A trickle down effect per say.

[Viktor Vaughn]

Replacement is not the same thing as upgrades, but a remodel can still cost a hundred million or more. Mdcastle's point, which you stomped all over him for, was that the Twins and Vikings will be back with their hands out in a couple short decades. You are arguing what they have is so nice that there's no basis for thinking they'll be back for a replacement. I'm skeptical of this based on history.

You can buy the newest iphone today, but in a couple of years it will be practically obsolete. Stadiums may not date that quickly, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Twins and Vikings are again claiming obsolescence in two or three decades. Maybe in 20 years fans will be so sick of watching baseball in the cold and rain, the Twins won't be able to sell tickets to April games. Maybe the new suites in the Vikings stadium will be considered so bourgeois they'll be an embarrassment to our midwestern sensibilities. Who knows what people will value in 30 years? My point is they should be put on notice that they're going to need to internalize their facility costs into their business model in the future.

Victor Vaughn, you also have to remember that public money is put into these stadiums in part because many, many people see a public good in having them. Xcel Energy Center totally changed that part of downtown St. Paul for the better, and Target Field has had huge effects on the North Loop. That's not to mention that our local pro sports teams are the biggest forms of entertainment here. The issue of public money isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be. We're not blindly throwing money at rich owners and getting nothing in return.

Thanks, but I never said the public doesn’t get any benefit from stadiums. What I’ve said is the cost-benefit analysis is indefensible. Those funds would have a greater effect if they were put towards public ends or not spent at all. We don’t give away these subsidies because they’re consistent with our values or earn an acceptable return; the subsidies are extracted through savvy manipulation of our hometeam loyalties and broken politics.

[seanrichardryan]

In case you missed this, the MSFA is discussing retail and 'liner' buildings for the big ol' parking ramp on the McClellan Block.

http://finance-commerce.com/2013/10/msf ... r-stadium/

[min-chi-cbus]

Maybe you're right, but did anyone building the Met Stadium or the Metrodome think they were building a structure that teams would only be happy with only 15 years (although maybe they were meant to be temporary, I wasn't old enough to recall discussions about building them so someone correct me if I'm wrong) And we're thinking yet again they have their "forever homes". Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, Fool me thrice-- we'll see, shame on the entire region? I haven't been to a sporting event in about 10 years , but for a Twins game and Vikings game the only negative that I recall is them being located downtown and having to drive around looking for a parking space and then walk by beggers and scalpers.

I really hope I'm wrong and the Vikings, Twins, and Gophers are done crying and throwing temper tantrums because mama won't buy them a new stadium for a while, but I'm not sure. Maybe all the other teams will build new stadiums and the Vikings will again have fewer luxury suites than what a "peoples stadium" should have, or the Twins and Gophers decide they don't like it in the rain. And maybe with the new parking, skyways, parks and development downtown east will become a nice place to see a game, but that's not my current impression from my decade old trips there. It's been that long since I've been on foot in the area.

No offense, but your post makes it pretty clear that you don't know much about modern sports stadiums, so your post is basically unsubstantiated speculation.

There's no basis for suggesting that stadiums built to the standard of Target Field, TCF Bank Stadium or the new Vikings stadium will need to be replaced within the next 20-30 years, so implying that doom and gloom is likely to occur based on your feelings is irresponsible.

No offense to you, but that's a pretty ridiculous take on what he wrote. He didn't claim to be an expert, and was providing his (admittedly) unprofessional point of view (He used words like "maybe" and "impression"). I'm not sure what rubbed you so raw about what he wrote, other than the fact that maybe it offends you or something you do for a living. I personally hold the same viewpoint: it DOES seem like there is always some excuse owners come up for why a current stadium isn't good enough, and history seems to support that angle.

I'm not angry or anything but I do not want people to be ridiculed for expressing their point of view, which seems to happen quite a bit on this forum.

[Didier]

Making predictions about any topic when you don't have any real basis or evidence for doing so is irresponsible and not helpful to any discussion. This is not an extreme statement.

Just because public financing sports stadiums is universally unpopular doesn't mean that every negative opinion is valid. There is no evidence to suggest that the Vikings would demand a new stadium in the next 20 years, in part because they signed a 30-year lease. There's also no reason why the Wilfs would commit extra money to the stadium before the final costs are determined. Therefore, maintaining a discussion that does nothing but attack the Wilfs on both points is both pointless and irresponsible.

It's not that hard to find legitimate areas in which to dislike the Wilfs. Try harder, min-chi-bus. Try harder.

[mullen]

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/10/2 ... -revealed/

[Scott16475]

Perhaps I read the 'Finance-commerce' article to fast but am I understanding it to say that they would (could) build retail on the street and put the parking behind the retail? If so, I'm all for hiding parking!

[mullen]

i wish i could find that mortenson construction animation somewhere. this wcco story only has a short bit showing the dome phased demolition and the area of the site the new stadium construction will begin. probably have to wait for the mortenson presentation to the msfa board at their next meeting.

[twincitizen]

http://www.startribune.com/video/228943471.html#mh

[mullen]

nice, thanks for posting that.

[mamundsen]

Very cool. Thanks!

According to that, we'll have 4 tower cranes to watch! That seems excessive. Anyone remember how many there were at Target Field or TCF Bank Stadium?

[mister.shoes]

Target Field only had a single tower crane, but it had several huge creeping cranes that could reach out and over the walls from the inside.

[FISHMANPET]

So has it been determined if there's a continuous concourse in this new stadium? From that animation it looks like that will be the case. I'm really hoping that Rollerdome will be able to come back.