Nicollet-Lake - greater Kmart area

[mattaudio]

Didn't they just rebuild Eat Street (new curb/gutter) within the past decade? I don't see it changing, especially when they try to get streetcars running down the lanes.

It doesn't feel dominated by autos IMO, despite the design. I think that has a lot to do with the street closure at 29th, even if the design isn't inherently calming of traffic.

My guess is the cross section is here to stay, except for possibly some bus/streetcar bulbs for more waiting area at stops. I'd also like to see some of the center left turn lane carved up into midblock planted medians to provide for easier midblock crossing (good jaywalking).

Of course, my dream (assuming we're set on streetcars) is dedicated streetcar ROW in the middle (gauntlet track) bulbing around center island stations. Streetcars would then run independently from car/bike traffic in the lanes. Most of the existing curb could be kept in this scenario too, although I'd actually like to see a return to center gutter/storm sewer like older European streets have. Streets sloping to a center gutter against a vegetated median (or dedicated streetcar ROW) would allow for easy, cost-effective conversion of the street to match the particular needs of a blockface. We could have curbless woonerfs where bollards and subtle design deliniate the space for amenities, sidewalk dining, walking, biking, and driving.

[PhilmerPhil]

Eat Street is absolutely not dominated by autos, at least in comparison to pretty much any other real commercial corridor in Minneapolis. It is incredibly comfortable to bike down Eat Street today. Crossing the street is a breeze throughout the corridor, including mid block crossings. Traffic moves fairly slowly.

While the actual design of the street includes five lanes dedicated to cars, the low thru traffic volumes, surrounding density, and pedestrian oriented buildings allow Eat Street to be the place that it is. Opening Nicollet at Lake would choke the corridor with cars and we'd just end up with another car dominated commercial strip.

(I feel like every few months I post the exact same thing as this...^)

[Wedgeguy]

Phil welcome to the reality of the rehashing the rehash.

[min-chi-cbus]

I think you can open up Nicollet AND maintain the calmer Eat Street vibe everybody (well, almost) seems to appreciate. Maybe make Eat Street a shared space/civilized street north of Lake St, and any vehicles that want to drive THRU the city can circumvent the street altogether, as it'll be too slow for the average commuter.

Nicollet can still be a great North:South thoroughfare through Minneapolis without being heavily traffic'd by commuters.

[mullen]

there are people in this city who actually think reopening nicollet is a bad idea. wonders never cease. and eat street is dominated by car traffic, cars up and down and looking for parking.

[mattaudio]

Nobody is against reopening Nicollet. Many people are against reopening Nicollet to automobiles.

[twincitizen]

Even if Nicollet was re-opened to automobiles, I doubt that southbound traffic would increase much (north of 28th anyways), because of:
A. Nicollet Mall to the north not being a source of any automobiles
B. Blaisdell is obviously much, much more efficient for southbound autos.

There would be a fair increase in traffic between 28th & Lake (EDIT: because it would be more than zero, duh)

Re-opening Nicollet&Lake to northbound autos would obviously increase traffic by some margin, but I highly doubt it would destroy the current ambiance. More cars could mean transit performance might suffer a bit, so that's not good. It's far from a doomsday scenario though. Nicollet Mall is still up there to the north, meaning northbound thru-autos need to move over to 1st Ave anyways. Might as well take 1st Ave northbound the whole way.

I too would like the concept of a mini- transit mall to be studied between Lake and 29th. While you still need two through lanes for buses/trams, you would not need left turn lanes for autos, which would decrease the crossing distance for peds and allow the public ROW to be narrower and hypothetically cost less taxpayer money.

Despite what we've seen in some preliminary renderings, I do not think streetcar tracks will be placed in the current auto traffic lanes, in the 3-lane configuration with center turn lane. Throughout winter, parked cars tend to move further away from the curb due to snowbank accumulation. This past winter especially, parked cars were several feet into the traffic lane, which is where the streetcar tracks would be. The center turn lane was basically nullified and Nicollet was just two traffic lanes. I think when the rubber (er, rail) hits the road, we will see a dramatically reconfigured Nicollet Avenue.

[EOst]

Despite what we've seen in some preliminary renderings, I do not think streetcar tracks will be placed in the current auto traffic lanes, in the 3-lane configuration with center turn lane. Throughout winter, parked cars tend to move further away from the curb due to snowbank accumulation. This past winter especially, parked cars were several feet into the traffic lane, which is where the streetcar tracks would be. The center turn lane was basically nullified and Nicollet was just two traffic lanes. I think when the rubber (er, rail) hits the road, we will see a dramatically reconfigured Nicollet Avenue.

How else would it be done? Two lanes the whole way? The center median really isn't big enough without a gauntlet track, which (despite some enthusiasm here) doesn't seem workable to me.

[mulad]

Plow into the center lane instead and scoop it all up and haul it away (unless there's a raised median, I guess).

My hometown has plowed the streets in the old business district that way since I was a kid. Just 2-lane streets plus parallel parking on the sides. I guess I've never paid attention to what they do about on-street parking for the duration, though -- the snow usually sits in the middle of the street for a few days before they get around to clearing it out, but there's little reason why it couldn't get done in a day.

[mattaudio]

Truth. We need to get past the idea of snow storage on great urban streets. If a street produces enough value (and Nicollet does) then we should be practicing snow removal rather than snow storage.

[David Greene]

I still don't understand the desire to have Nicollet "open" -- I want to see it reconnected, but that's not necessarily the same thing. Having the block between the Greenway and Lake be for transit/bike/ped only would really help keep the feel of Eat Street, where Nicollet is more of a space shared by all users rather than dominated by the automobile.

I wonder how the streetcar will play into this. Streetcars can act as a calming device, no?

I worry that keeping Lake/Nicollet closed to autos is going to inflict an opportunity cost on Nicollet businesses. I know right now I almost never driver on Nicollet north of 29th because it's just too inconvenient to meander back onto it after passing the Kmart. I'm not nearly as familiar with what's there because I hardly ever drive it. Contrast that to Hennepin south of Franklin where I can rattle off just about every storefront from Franklin to 31st and some beyond that.

I agree that making Nicollet more of a shared space would be great. But I think the chance of that happening is pretty close to zero. Given that, I would not want the reopening to be closed to autos. I really think the streetcar can help the traffic situation.

[uptowncarag]

Why would you not want Nicollet open to Automobiles? Streets are built for cars. Cars are not evil.

[talindsay]

Why would you not want Nicollet open to Automobiles? Streets are built for cars. Cars are not evil.

Evilcars:2014::Oldstreetcar:1948.

[Nathan]

I feel like every time we get the opportunity to create a new urban street in this city we need to focus on making it a complete street and that means including everyone, it's not hard, create shared space. There is no reason we can't have transit, calmed vehicles, bike lanes, and sidewalks in a massive area where we get to create everything from scratch.

[twincitizen]

^Regarding the above comments, one possible argument for not allowing cars is that it will require a left turn lane southbound, which widens the amount of street needed. The other argument is that cars will induce delay to transit. On the flippy flop, if cars are allowed to pass through Nicollet, we could do some serious traffic calming on Blaisdell, maybe even kill off the one-way pairs entirely. Another idea I have for this area is to improve traffic flow on Lake Street by eliminating (at least) one stoplight. Currently there are stoplights every short block (330') from 2nd all the way to Pillsbury. 1st Avenue is the one I'd target for removal, essentially ending 1st Ave as a through street. This would allow for a proper 660' spacing between Stevens Ave and Nicollet stoplights. Of course, this requires a NB bicycle facility on Nicollet or Blaisdell.



Anyways, what I really came here to post was this: http://finance-commerce.com/2014/08/wha ... -finances/

I really hope that as these discussions move forward, the City is tempering their zeal for giving Kmart money to move with the reality that Sears Holdings is in very bad shape financially. I don't care how well they say this specific store is performing; the financial health of the parent corporation must be considered.

[Realstreets]

I feel like every time we get the opportunity to create a new urban street in this city we need to focus on making it a complete street and that means including everyone, it's not hard, create shared space. There is no reason we can't have transit, calmed vehicles, bike lanes, and sidewalks in a massive area where we get to create everything from scratch.

I agree with you. I don't really understand the appeal of transit corridors. While it provides a benefit to transit riders (actually just bus riders) you trade cars for noisy buses (albeit better performing buses) and some more sidewalk. Transit corridor done on the scale of Nicollet Mall I would say do little to entice drivers to switch to transit (need citation). However, it will be hard to hold back the road building crowd's demand for turn lanes and throughput.

Furthermore, aren't transit corridors only useful where multiple bus lines and transfers all converge on or near the same street?

[PhilmerPhil]

My reasoning for making this short stretch transit only has much more to do with placemaking and local walkability than it does for transit performance.

[woofner]

Yeah there would just be 2200 daily boardings at this intersection, no reason to prioritize transit here.

[grant1simons2]

As I do agree with that there was no need to bash the idea of transit corridor and cars > buses. This should be opened to cars with bike lanes and open a 2 way on 29th.

[mattaudio]

My reasoning for making this short stretch transit only has much more to do with placemaking and local walkability than it does for transit performance.

This. We just don't have a track record of building streets which accommodate cars while simultaneously being an effective framework for a place. If we could build shared space or 9 foot lanes or something, maybe cars could be a part of the mix on this block. Until we prove that can be done, I think we need to push for a car-less block from 29th to Lake.