Nicollet Mall

[grant1simons2]

I don't trust many people who start their arguments with, "this project will be a waste of my tax money" or "this is a waste of tax payer money." I get that you don't like getting taxed, I'm sorry that our world needs money for projects that are pretty routine for every 30 years and beautify an outdated area. There are already people on Nicollet Mall during the weekend so I really don't know what you're talking about there. I agree that stores and restaurants are needed to draw people in, but updated areas with nice trees and public art displays draw in those stores and restaurants which draw... you get the point. Have you looked at Peavey Plaza lately? Or the IDS parklot? Seating areas are popping up downtown and people, yes business people and residents, are using them. It's a system people see in movies, on tv and really in other big cities so they want it for themselves. Is it really a bad thing to give people seating? Even if it's a class of people you don't entirely like for outdated reasons that are almost entirely pointless?

[beige_box]

OK so why isn't the city spending $50 million to "update" West Broadway?

[Anondson]

Why isn't the city spending $50 million "updating" Yale Place?

[acs]

Move the buses to 3rd permanently it makes too much sense...

[go4guy]

I honestly think this project will be a waste of my tax money. The demographics in the renditions do not represent reality. I can't imagine a white woman working on her laptop after dark outside of the Gap store. Nicollet Mall is a bus lane and it will remain so after millions is spent. The growth of North Loop is organic, but I don't see how putting up trees, outdoor seatings and mundane art display will bring people to Nicollet Mall during the weekend unless you're there for bus transfer. You need nice restaurants and stores to draw people in. I doubt a new Walgreens would help. People living in the north end of downtown will continue to head towards the river, instead of the outdoor seatings along a bus lane. People who will take advantage of the new seatings on Nicollet Mall will continue to be the same group of people today.

I absolutely don't understand why I would be assessed for the reconstruction of a street that I rarely use. I'm all for building up downtown, but I think this project is a total waste.

Why does it matter if it is white woman? Why can't you just say you cant picture a person on a laptop after dark.

[David Greene]

To be fair, women (not just white) do have extra concerns about safety that men don't have. And rightly so.

[kyl]

I don't trust many people who start their arguments with, "this project will be a waste of my tax money" or "this is a waste of tax payer money." I get that you don't like getting taxed, I'm sorry that our world needs money for projects that are pretty routine for every 30 years and beautify an outdated area. There are already people on Nicollet Mall during the weekend so I really don't know what you're talking about there. I agree that stores and restaurants are needed to draw people in, but updated areas with nice trees and public art displays draw in those stores and restaurants which draw... you get the point. Have you looked at Peavey Plaza lately? Or the IDS parklot? Seating areas are popping up downtown and people, yes business people and residents, are using them. It's a system people see in movies, on tv and really in other big cities so they want it for themselves. Is it really a bad thing to give people seating? Even if it's a class of people you don't entirely like for outdated reasons that are almost entirely pointless?

What not to trust? It's my hard-earned money. I don't know how you earn your paychecks. I trust myself that I work really hard for them, and I don't want my tax money to be misused just because the city says so. Nicollet Mall is a place for business workers during the week, so I have no problem businesses pick up the reconstruction tab if they want a better work environment for their workers, but I don't understand why I should subsidize businesses on and around Nicollet Mall. Have you ever walked down Nicollet Mall on a Sat/Sun evening? I did this past Sunday. There was a scream-fest going on between people.

"It's a system people see in movies, on tv and really in other big cities so they want it for themselves"??? Are you living in reality?? Or, are you fantasizing "When Harry met Sally?" I walked past Nic on Mall, and I didn't see any of the residents romanticizing Nicollet Mall. I know there will be a few more residential buildings in the north end of Nicollet Mall, but how do you compete the new pricey outdoor seatings and mundane art display on Nicollet Mall with the mighty Mississippi or the quaint North Loop? Nicollet Mall residents in the north end will still continue to head towards the river if they need a breadth of fresh outdoor air. Nicollet Mall will remain a public transport transit hub after millions is spent. Scream-fests will remain.

I have no problem if the city spends money in areas where residents go and enjoy their weekends. I have no problem if the city spends money on an iconic art piece like the Bean in Chicago, but I didn't see anything spectacular in those renditions. All I saw was misrepresentation of the demographics of Nicollet Mall during a weekend. Nicollet Mall will still be like most downtown streets where no white women would work on her laptop after dark.

[kyl]

I honestly think this project will be a waste of my tax money. The demographics in the renditions do not represent reality. I can't imagine a white woman working on her laptop after dark outside of the Gap store. Nicollet Mall is a bus lane and it will remain so after millions is spent. The growth of North Loop is organic, but I don't see how putting up trees, outdoor seatings and mundane art display will bring people to Nicollet Mall during the weekend unless you're there for bus transfer. You need nice restaurants and stores to draw people in. I doubt a new Walgreens would help. People living in the north end of downtown will continue to head towards the river, instead of the outdoor seatings along a bus lane. People who will take advantage of the new seatings on Nicollet Mall will continue to be the same group of people today.

I absolutely don't understand why I would be assessed for the reconstruction of a street that I rarely use. I'm all for building up downtown, but I think this project is a total waste.

Why does it matter if it is white woman? Why can't you just say you cant picture a person on a laptop after dark.

I know people will question that, but all I want is to make my point. The demographics in those Nicollet Mall renditions misrepresent the reality of Nicollet Mall after dark when all the business workers have gone home. 95% of the people in the renditions are white, which does not represent reality, and it makes me question why they did that. What kind of message are they sending? What's the reason behind the misrepresentation?

If City of New York is trying to renovate Chinatown, will they use renditions with 95% white people?

[Anondson]

There is an epidemic of architectural drawings that show what is hoped to become rather than what it was from before. Call the news!

But yes, we were missing the drawing from 2am on Sunday. We were duped!

[sushisimo]

no white women would work on her laptop after dark.

This is quickly becoming my favorite thing since "fetishized Google maps".

[beige_box]

I honestly think this project will be a waste of my tax money. The demographics in the renditions do not represent reality. I can't imagine a white woman working on her laptop after dark outside of the Gap store. Nicollet Mall is a bus lane and it will remain so after millions is spent. The growth of North Loop is organic, but I don't see how putting up trees, outdoor seatings and mundane art display will bring people to Nicollet Mall during the weekend unless you're there for bus transfer. You need nice restaurants and stores to draw people in. I doubt a new Walgreens would help. People living in the north end of downtown will continue to head towards the river, instead of the outdoor seatings along a bus lane. People who will take advantage of the new seatings on Nicollet Mall will continue to be the same group of people today.

I absolutely don't understand why I would be assessed for the reconstruction of a street that I rarely use. I'm all for building up downtown, but I think this project is a total waste.

Why does it matter if it is white woman? Why can't you just say you cant picture a person on a laptop after dark.

I know people will question that, but all I want is to make my point. The demographics in those Nicollet Mall renditions misrepresent the reality of Nicollet Mall after dark when all the business workers have gone home. 95% of the people in the renditions are white, which does not represent reality, and it makes me question why they did that. What kind of message are they sending? What's the reason behind the misrepresentation?

If City of New York is trying to renovate Chinatown, will they use renditions with 95% white people?

Let's stop beating around the bush and unpack the awkward nasty race stuff you've managed to sneak around with so far. You are arguing that:

1) A significant proportion of the people who hang out in Nicollet Mall after hours are non-white.
2) As a result, "people"--a word you use here to mean white people!--instead hang out elsewhere.
3) White women will not use their laptops outside in the vicinity of non-white people.
4) The fact that Nicollet is a bus lane is the reason for non-white people being there.
5) Therefore, Nicollet Mall is some sort of failure.

Outside of point 1 (obviously true, extends to a lot of middle class immigrant families from all sorts of backgrounds), these are racist garbage opinions. Hey moderators what do we do?

That said, I do think $50 million to reconstruct an already over-landscaped part of the city that will bring in hundreds of thousands of people every day either way is a pretty bogus project.

[beige_box]

There is an epidemic of architectural drawings that show what is hoped to become rather than what it was from before. Call the news!

Prominent streets.mn forums commenter attempts to laugh away and normalize the idea of getting black people out of downtown as the goal of Nicollet mall redesign? Sounds like news to me.

[EOst]

I really doubt the guy putting together those renderings spent more than about 1% of his time thinking about the race of the people he inserted from the stock library.

[Wedgeguy]

I honestly think this project will be a waste of my tax money. The demographics in the renditions do not represent reality. I can't imagine a white woman working on her laptop after dark outside of the Gap store. Nicollet Mall is a bus lane and it will remain so after millions is spent. The growth of North Loop is organic, but I don't see how putting up trees, outdoor seatings and mundane art display will bring people to Nicollet Mall during the weekend unless you're there for bus transfer. You need nice restaurants and stores to draw people in. I doubt a new Walgreens would help. People living in the north end of downtown will continue to head towards the river, instead of the outdoor seatings along a bus lane. People who will take advantage of the new seatings on Nicollet Mall will continue to be the same group of people today.

I absolutely don't understand why I would be assessed for the reconstruction of a street that I rarely use. I'm all for building up downtown, but I think this project is a total waste.

It is called white folks with blinders that rarely read our comments and are totally clueless that you rarely can make it by, " Build it and they will come". As you have said the NL is growing organically, with restaurants and store fronts mixed together in the sidewalks. The mall will have few doors that actually have public access. Mostly private doors for private buildings. Not something that generates foot traffic during the week or weekend. You can make it as pretty as possible, but it you have no other reason to be in the area, Eating, shopping, working, it will be like original Riverplace where you have been there once or twice but there is rarely a need to spend much time there. At this point the north end of the mall is being shortchanged with lack of activity. Sitting in a park for 20 minutes is not an activity that generates revenue for businesses, increase the tax base, and provide people to help make that mall a safer place by more eyes on the street. There needs to be more retail, doors along the mall and the streets immediately next to them for people to walk off to get to another store. We have walled off too much of our east/west streets for parking garages and blank walls. Time to get some activity on the east/west streets as well so that people have a reason to walk a few blocks off the mall now and then. IMO

[David Greene]

Ok, I'm probably one of the first people on here to shout, "racism," but you're over the top, beige_box.

I think kyl probably reflects what a lot of people think, particularly those in the suburbs. So let's unpack that.

White people aren't comfortable around people of color. Why is that? Behavior? Why?

White people won't visit the Mall because people of color. I'm not sure that's true for most but it is certainly true for some. What would be compelling enough in the Mall to draw those people? Because the only way to overcome bigotry is to obliterate ignorance and the only way to do that is through experience and relationships. Holidazzle drew a lot of people of all colors to the Mall so we know it can be done.

Is the homeless population keeping people away? Again, I am skeptical. Other cities have much more visible homelessness. A lot of the panhandlers I see are in fact young white people.

Are buses really the problem? I'm skeptical but what is it about buses that turns people off? Noise? Pollution? Does a streetcar help, with or without buses remaining on the Mall?

I completely agree with kyl and Wedgeguy and others that retail and restaurants is what will make or break the Mall. Other than keeping this message alive in the public conversation, what can we do?

[Wedgeguy]

David the white folks that I was talking about was the planners and the city that seem to be oblivious to what really makes a city a live, and a thriving place. The graphics alone show that they think the mall should be a park and not a thriving destination for people of all walks of life. They are more worried about outdoor seating that they are the number of doors that would provide retail that will keep people coming to the mall and spending time and money in the area. Not just sitting on their asses on movable chairs, But spending time making the area a dynamic place and a true destination.

[David Greene]

Yes, but what do we do about that?

[kyl]

Hey beige_box,

Can I call you beige? Is that racist to call a person a color? Maybe I should start calling you my PC-hero.

Everything I said is reality. If you think it's racist, then reality is racist. Let's recap what you accused me of:

1) A significant proportion of the people who hang out in Nicollet Mall after hours are non-white. -- reality
2) As a result, "people"--a word you use here to mean white people!--instead hang out elsewhere. -- reality. 99% of the residents in those fancy, overpriced condos and apts are white, but I didn't see them hanging out on Nicollet Mall after 6. Also, are you implying I interchange "whites" with "people"? If you want to go there, there's nothing I can do to change your opinion of I meant. I used the words "residents" mostly and I used "people living in". But again reality tells me 99% of the residents in those fancy, overpriced condos and apts are white.
3) White women will not use their laptops outside in the vicinity of non-white people. -- That's not what I said. I said no white women would work on her laptop outside of the Gap store after dark, as depicted in of the renderings. It's an opinion on the renderings from http://www.nicolletmallproject.com.
4) The fact that Nicollet is a bus lane is the reason for non-white people being there. -- reality.
5) Therefore, Nicollet Mall is some sort of failure. -- reality, except I would cross out the word "Therefore". In fact, I would cross out "some sort of" as well.

This is a country where people become so sensitive when a color is mentioned. I would rather spend $50 millions on inner city schools. In fact, we have at least a couple in downtown Mpls.

[amiller92]

the quaint North Loop?

Quaint? Hm.

Scream-fests will remain.

You may think this is cleverly-veiled, but it isn't.

I have no problem if the city spends money in areas where residents go and enjoy their weekends.

What about places that people go and use both during the week and on week ends? Because a whole lot of people use the Mall. Probably a lot more, in aggregate, than use river-front parks, for example.

All I saw was misrepresentation of the demographics of Nicollet Mall during a weekend.

Those renderings were only of weekends? Huh.

Nicollet Mall will still be like most downtown streets where no white women would work on her laptop after dark.

Yeah, about that veil...

[mplsjaromir]

I'm gonna have to disagree with kyl on two points.

I would say that the Mall is very successful. Just taking into account properties that line Nicollet Mall and not having the patience to include individual condos, I surmised that the city receives about $22.8 Million per year (43% of tax going to the city) from Nicollet Mall properties. Which for those who have not memorized the city's budget, that is more than 10% of all Minneapolis' collected property taxes in only 23 blocks. To me it certainly makes sense for the state and the city to spend some money on updating this stretch. If this rendition lasts as long as the as the previous, the yearly amortized cost is around $2 million. Not chump change but when viewed in relation to other pertinent figures the remodel budget seems reasonable.

I also disagree with the assertion that the reason for PoCs to be on Nicollet Mall is because of a bus. Believe it or not some people who are not white work downtown, some of them have really nice offices and drive fancy cars too. Hardly the assertion that it's reality.