Hiawatha-Minnehaha Corridor - General Topics
Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
A drive thru would be absolutely terrible. You only have to look at the car bucks at Snelling and Marshall in Saint Paul to see what would happen here. Traffic would back up waiting to get into the parking lot, the bike lane would constantly be blocked, and it will be a horrible entrance for pedestrians. This is just a really bad proposal and needs to be denied. The City of Minneapolis banned drive thrus throughout the entire city for a reason.
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
Ped access to the Starbucks is really bad, I'll give you that. But I disagree that drive-thru lines will frequently back up all the way onto 42nd. There's actually ample queuing space from the ordering station to the street, wrapping around the building and through the parking lot. This isn't Snelling & Marshall by a long shot. Also, there's no bike lane here...it's a right turn lane. If there ever were a bike lane on westbound 42nd, it would be sandwiched between the westbound lane and the right turn lane, not along the curb.
The traffic issue that will be a problem is people trying to turn left into the site from eastbound 42nd. Here's a Google streetview shot of cars on westbound 42nd waiting at a red light at Hiawatha. The are stacked well beyond the proposed curb cut location. There's only a single eastbound lane (and no shoulder), so someone stopping to turn left will block all eastbound traffic, which could extend queues into Hiawatha Ave (it would take about 6 cars stacked behind the left-turner). That could be solved with a median on 42nd prohibiting left turns into the property, but the Planning Commission doesn't have the authority to force Public Works to install a median.
I was all set to begrudgingly support this (based on CPED staff support and it being an obvious improvement over what's there), but now I don't think I can unless the city guarantees a median blocking left turns into the site.
Really, the best case for future development of this parcel is if they could connect the parking lot with Elevated Liquor to the north, giving direct access from Hiawatha. It would be a lot easier then to have right-in/right-out driveways on both Hiawatha and 42nd, alleviating most traffic concerns.
The traffic issue that will be a problem is people trying to turn left into the site from eastbound 42nd. Here's a Google streetview shot of cars on westbound 42nd waiting at a red light at Hiawatha. The are stacked well beyond the proposed curb cut location. There's only a single eastbound lane (and no shoulder), so someone stopping to turn left will block all eastbound traffic, which could extend queues into Hiawatha Ave (it would take about 6 cars stacked behind the left-turner). That could be solved with a median on 42nd prohibiting left turns into the property, but the Planning Commission doesn't have the authority to force Public Works to install a median.
I was all set to begrudgingly support this (based on CPED staff support and it being an obvious improvement over what's there), but now I don't think I can unless the city guarantees a median blocking left turns into the site.
Really, the best case for future development of this parcel is if they could connect the parking lot with Elevated Liquor to the north, giving direct access from Hiawatha. It would be a lot easier then to have right-in/right-out driveways on both Hiawatha and 42nd, alleviating most traffic concerns.
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- Union Depot
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
I understand what you are going for, but blocking access from east-bound 42nd with a median effectively blocks access for all traffic on Hiawatha. The site plan is completely inconsistent with adding an additional entrance from the lot for the neighboring business, so your idea above isn't really viable either. Blocking access to Hiawatha traffic would kill this entire plan. How you feel about that option is up to you, but your proposal above to require a median would end this project.Ped access to the Starbucks is really bad, I'll give you that. But I disagree that drive-thru lines will frequently back up all the way onto 42nd. There's actually ample queuing space from the ordering station to the street, wrapping around the building and through the parking lot. This isn't Snelling & Marshall by a long shot. Also, there's no bike lane here...it's a right turn lane. If there ever were a bike lane on westbound 42nd, it would be sandwiched between the westbound lane and the right turn lane, not along the curb.
The traffic issue that will be a problem is people trying to turn left into the site from eastbound 42nd. Here's a Google streetview shot of cars on westbound 42nd waiting at a red light at Hiawatha. The are stacked well beyond the proposed curb cut location. There's only a single eastbound lane (and no shoulder), so someone stopping to turn left will block all eastbound traffic, which could extend queues into Hiawatha Ave (it would take about 6 cars stacked behind the left-turner). That could be solved with a median on 42nd prohibiting left turns into the property, but the Planning Commission doesn't have the authority to force Public Works to install a median.
I was all set to begrudgingly support this (based on CPED staff support and it being an obvious improvement over what's there), but now I don't think I can unless the city guarantees a median blocking left turns into the site.
Really, the best case for future development of this parcel is if they could connect the parking lot with Elevated Liquor to the north, giving direct access from Hiawatha. It would be a lot easier then to have right-in/right-out driveways on both Hiawatha and 42nd, alleviating most traffic concerns.
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
I would almost be more inclined to support a right-in from northbound Hiawatha AND a median blocking left turns to/from eastbound 42nd. Even though that would add a second curb cut to the site, I bet it would reduce chaotic interactions from a traffic management standpoint.
Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
Technically you are right, but there are bike lanes directly east and west of this specific site and this stretch is along the city identified RiverLake Greenway. People frequently bike along 42nd Street to frequent businesses like Bakers Wife and Busters. Having cars constantly turning in and out of a drive thru would make this route even more dangerous than it already is.Also, there's no bike lane here...it's a right turn lane. If there ever were a bike lane on westbound 42nd, it would be sandwiched between the westbound lane and the right turn lane, not along the curb.
I also think this is very similar to Snelling and Marshall, and perhaps even worse. You are directly adjacent to a highway bringing commuters people from the suburbs that probably frequent a lot of drive thrus. There is really not that much more queuing space, see image below from carbucks in Saint Paul.
Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
Continued to October 21 Planning Comission meeting.
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
According to the planning commission actions, the Starbucks was denied
Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
So ends the last drive-through in Minneapolis.
Joey Senkyr
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[email protected]
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
They're still in the appeal window, but I can't imagine they'd have any chance of success at that.
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
I can’t imagine they won’t file an appeal, given the sunk costs for the project thus far. I also can’t see the city council approving the appeal, over the objections of Public Works.
Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
I mean, that's the opposite of how one is supposed to think about sunk costs, but yeah.
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
How dare you make me look up the correct usage of “sunk costs”. I’m a planner, not an economistI mean, that's the opposite of how one is supposed to think about sunk costs, but yeah.
Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
I'd say you're both right -- rationally, people shouldn't consider the sunk costs, but people aren't always rational.How dare you make me look up the correct usage of “sunk costs”. I’m a planner, not an economist
Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
I mean, it's called the sunk costs fallacy for a reason.I'd say you're both right -- rationally, people shouldn't consider the sunk costs, but people aren't always rational.
Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
They did appeal. Zoning and planning committee delayed their vote. I would recommend writing your council member if you want this drive thru stopped.
https://twitter.com/wedgelive/status/11 ... 04448?s=21
https://twitter.com/wedgelive/status/11 ... 04448?s=21
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
This was approved on Thursday, subject to the following conditions:
1. All site improvements shall be completed by September 23, 2021, unless extended by the Zoning Administrator, or the permit may be revoked for non-compliance.
2. CPED staff shall review and approve the final site, elevation, landscaping, and lighting plans before building permits may be issued.
3. All signs shall comply with Chapter 543 of the zoning code. All signage requires a separate permit from CPED.
4. Any decreases in floor area shall not be permitted.
5. The portion of the office building along Hiawatha Avenue shall be no less than 16 feet in depth as shown in the submitted floor plans.
6. No business licenses shall be issued for the proposed coffee shop until the liner building fronting Hiawatha Avenue and E 42nd Street is constructed.
7. The lighting plan shall be revised to demonstrate how all building entrances and walkways will be lit to maintain a minimum acceptable level of security while not creating glare or excessive lighting of the site to comply with sections 530.130 and 530.260 of the zoning code.
8. Three canopy trees and eight ornamental trees shall be planted on-site as shown in the submitted landscaping plan.
9. The signage, curb cut, and driveway access shall be designed to prevent left turns into and out of the site.
10. The applicant shall work with Public Works to modify the street design of E 42nd Street to prohibit left turns into the site.
11. The applicant shall obtain an approved Transportation Demand Management Plan (TDMP) prior to the issuance of any building permits or business licenses and shall maintain compliance with the TDMP for the life of the drive-through including but not limited to providing traffic enforcement as deemed necessary.
The vote was de facto unanimous for approval, but Goodman voted no because she did not support the addition of condition 11, due to fears the city would be sued over it. You'll have to watch the replay for more specifics.
Kudos to CPED staff for coming up with condition #6, which prevents the Starbucks from opening until the "liner office building" along Hiawatha is built. Without that in place, Starbucks could have opened and the liner building quietly cancelled by the developer. This site plan is still the kookiest thing I've ever seen and I don't believe it will be built, unless they somehow already have a suitor for the office space who's willing to build and occupy as planned. I'm honestly surprised that Starbucks corporate is even on board with this design.
1. All site improvements shall be completed by September 23, 2021, unless extended by the Zoning Administrator, or the permit may be revoked for non-compliance.
2. CPED staff shall review and approve the final site, elevation, landscaping, and lighting plans before building permits may be issued.
3. All signs shall comply with Chapter 543 of the zoning code. All signage requires a separate permit from CPED.
4. Any decreases in floor area shall not be permitted.
5. The portion of the office building along Hiawatha Avenue shall be no less than 16 feet in depth as shown in the submitted floor plans.
6. No business licenses shall be issued for the proposed coffee shop until the liner building fronting Hiawatha Avenue and E 42nd Street is constructed.
7. The lighting plan shall be revised to demonstrate how all building entrances and walkways will be lit to maintain a minimum acceptable level of security while not creating glare or excessive lighting of the site to comply with sections 530.130 and 530.260 of the zoning code.
8. Three canopy trees and eight ornamental trees shall be planted on-site as shown in the submitted landscaping plan.
9. The signage, curb cut, and driveway access shall be designed to prevent left turns into and out of the site.
10. The applicant shall work with Public Works to modify the street design of E 42nd Street to prohibit left turns into the site.
11. The applicant shall obtain an approved Transportation Demand Management Plan (TDMP) prior to the issuance of any building permits or business licenses and shall maintain compliance with the TDMP for the life of the drive-through including but not limited to providing traffic enforcement as deemed necessary.
The vote was de facto unanimous for approval, but Goodman voted no because she did not support the addition of condition 11, due to fears the city would be sued over it. You'll have to watch the replay for more specifics.
Kudos to CPED staff for coming up with condition #6, which prevents the Starbucks from opening until the "liner office building" along Hiawatha is built. Without that in place, Starbucks could have opened and the liner building quietly cancelled by the developer. This site plan is still the kookiest thing I've ever seen and I don't believe it will be built, unless they somehow already have a suitor for the office space who's willing to build and occupy as planned. I'm honestly surprised that Starbucks corporate is even on board with this design.
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
Some silos being redeveloped without being demolished:
https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... tubes.html
https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... tubes.html
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Re: Hiawatha-Minnehaha Development & RR Corridor/MinHi Line
The old Bridgeman’s/Somtaste came down in the last week, and there a good deal of activity on site. Upon looking at the approved plans for 4757 Hiawatha, it looks like the front door will be along the stub of Nawadaha Boulevard, halfway between Hiawatha and Minnehaha. I wonder if the address will change.
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